I loved the rich lawyer vacation shutdown!

[JP]

Look, I've got nothing but a life of luxury, relatively speaking.  But I was absolutely wincing when those two, married, third year law students were asking where they should go on vacation.

Oh the satisfaction when Tom GOMP'd them hard!

ahhhhh.....

JP

[John Junk]

Agreed.  I think the worst thing was that the dude honestly thought it would be an interesting topic for the rest of us to discuss!

[Andy]

born on third and think they hit a triple.

[mike a]

YES.  I was just about to post this.  That call was personal for me.  I graduate law school next year.  I take the bar next summer.  My big worry will not be whether to go to South America or Europe, but how to pay the intimidating student loan I've accrued over these past few years.  That guy deserved to be GOMPed, and if I ever go against him in a court of law, I'll make best efforts to destroy him.

[Forrest]

He bought the additional thirty seconds and totally blew it.

[dave from knoxville]

I grew up in Nashville, I am willing to bet those were Vanderbilt Law School students. If so, I can assure you that you hate them even more than you think.

[Andy]

this might offend the lawyers here, and I don't mean for it to.  there are a lot of good people who go to law school and practice law, etc..., but this is my biggest problem with the law school system:

When I was in school, I hung out with a lot of free-spirit types via friends of friends...  They were smart kids, kids from good families, just didn't know what they wanted to do.  You'd go out with them and say "so, what do you plan on doing after you get you dual degree in russian/russian lit?" and they'd say "I don't know, I'm just doing what I love.  maybe I'll go teach english as a second language in some poor Russian village".  The whole time I'm thinking to myself "look, they're doing what they love and I'm just learning a trade.  what a selfish guy I am for not wanting to sacrifice and go teach poor Russian children.  How can I live with myself?"

So, the free-spirits graduate, but instead of going to Russia, they stick around and get a job waiting tables or whatever other job they can find.  About 4 months into this, they decide they need to have a new passion in life, one that will afford them the lifestyle that they were previously accustomed to during their 6 years of undergrad Russian classes.  Medical School?  Nope, requires starting over again in the undergrad.  Architecture?  Nope, requires starting over again in the undergrad.  Wait, I know.  I suddenly have a burning desire to practice law.

But don't start feeling any better about yourself, Andy.  I'm not completely heartless; I want to be a child/native american issues/special needs/women's abuse/etc... advocate law.  I'm not in this thing for the money.

Fast forward 3 years, and they're working at a personal injury or corporate defense type law firm.

Again, don't get me wrong.  I know there are plenty of people who get into law for the right reasons and plenty of good lawyers and I understand that my diatribe above probably says more about me then it does about the people.  But, I have seen no less than 5 people I know decently well go down that exact path.

[Josh]

And the idea that going to Europe would be too "etho-centric". Overthink much?

I have to admit, I got an almost embarrassing amount of joy from that GOMP.




You can get a Master's in Architecture degree without a related Bachelor's, though. It just takes seven semesters instead of three.

[Andy]

You can get a Master's in Architecture degree without a related Bachelor's, though. It just takes seven semesters instead of three.

and actually at OU, I don't even think the masters without the related bachelor's is 7 semesters, but it's a shit degree from a shit program.

[Richard_From_CHI]

Well I've got a JD and an MFA and did public interest work and now work for an arts organization, so screw you, haters.

That said, I didn't get to go on a damn vacation after the bar, I got back to the nasty business of trying to pay my bills and working.

They deserved to get GOMPed.

[Fido]

When I was in school, I hung out with a lot of free-spirit types via friends of friends...  They were smart kids, kids from good families, just didn't know what they wanted to do.  You'd go out with them and say "so, what do you plan on doing after you get you dual degree in russian/russian lit?" and they'd say "I don't know, I'm just doing what I love.  maybe I'll go teach english as a second language in some poor Russian village".  The whole time I'm thinking to myself "look, they're doing what they love and I'm just learning a trade.  what a selfish guy I am for not wanting to sacrifice and go teach poor Russian children.  How can I live with myself?"

So, the free-spirits graduate, but instead of going to Russia, they stick around and get a job waiting tables or whatever other job they can find.  About 4 months into this, they decide they need to have a new passion in life, one that will afford them the lifestyle that they were previously accustomed to during their 6 years of undergrad Russian classes.  Medical School?  Nope, requires starting over again in the undergrad.  Architecture?  Nope, requires starting over again in the undergrad.  Wait, I know.  I suddenly have a burning desire to practice law.

But don't start feeling any better about yourself, Andy.  I'm not completely heartless; I want to be a child/native american issues/special needs/women's abuse/etc... advocate law.  I'm not in this thing for the money.

Right on, Andy.  What you wrote rings true for me, because I was almost one of those free spirit types who traipsed off to law school for the wrong reasons.  I didn't, and I believe to this day it's a good thing.  I splashed some cold water on my face and buckled down and made a different choice, albeit one that hasn't led to great career satisfaction, but I think attending law school would have been a worse idea for myself and for the types of people that you are writing about. 

Having said all this -- and Andy, I don't believe you meant to be a "hater" or to impugn legal education or the legal profession -- attending law school is an excellent choice for people who have more specific ambitions in the world of legal practice.  However, I agree with you that law school attracts a number of people with vague, ill-defined goals who nevertheless see it as a way to embark on on a path that they believe may lead to something socially beneficial, or at least, something socially halfway respectable.  If I had any advice to impart to people in their early 20s, it would be to think very carefully about defining one's goals, aptitudes, likes and dislikes, and not to settle on an educational or career path simply because it seems socially respectable, ambitious, or financially lucrative.  That can also be a very difficult thing to do.

[Josh]

they all turn into hard-bitten slickters
[youtube=425,350]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rtoar25Nyq0[/youtube]

[evan (giggles)]

i guess i just don't see the point of law school for anybody. i mean, do you really believe that court cases are decided by juries making decisions based on evidence and lawyers arguments?

[youtube=425,350]bcaVSTsYyOI[/youtube]

[Richard_From_CHI]

If only it were that simple. While lawyers have poisoned a great many things, without analysis and adherance to the laws both statutory and common law we would live in a much nastier world. Segregation, no rights to a trial, no constitutional guarantees. The system may be flawed but there are a lot of good lawyers out there protecting people's rights.

I assisted thousands of clients who were being sued or evicted in Chicago, for free, and without the assistance of a lawyer, lots and lots of poor little old ladies would have been thrown out of their homes, been left on the hook for debts that weren't theirs, and lot and lots of other examples of people who only got a fair shake in court due to a lawyer.

[TL]

If only it were that simple. While lawyers have poisoned a great many things, without analysis and adherance to the laws both statutory and common law we would live in a much nastier world. Segregation, no rights to a trial, no constitutional guarantees. The system may be flawed but there are a lot of good lawyers out there protecting people's rights.

I assisted thousands of clients who were being sued or evicted in Chicago, for free, and without the assistance of a lawyer, lots and lots of poor little old ladies would have been thrown out of their homes, been left on the hook for debts that weren't theirs, and lot and lots of other examples of people who only got a fair shake in court due to a lawyer.

Plus, court trials are a seriously tiny part of lawyering (and there is always the option of representing oneself in a trial, if one so chooses).  People need representaion from lawyers for everything from buying a house or apartment (or protection from getting evicted, as Richard points out) to creating a will, starting a business, debt collection, debt protection, employment issues, etc.  All of the above complaints are legit, but as Andy and others have said, they speak more to the character of people who get into law only because it's a respectable job that pays well than to the concept of lawyering itself.
Having said all that, I wholeheartedly agree with the original thrust of this thread!