FOT Forum
FOT Community => General Discussion => Topic started by: Julie on February 15, 2008, 01:04:51 PM
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I hate math haters, especially the ones that don't know anything about math besides how to add and multiply. That's as stupid as a four year old who's learning the alphabet hating to read. Math haters are narrow-minded.
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You're absolutely correct, Julie: there are a lot of people out there who hate math.
If my eldest sister were posting this, she'd comment that she hates it when people say "math" when they mean "arithmetic." Does this bother you, DfK?
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What if I were to be specific and say that I hate advanced algebra and statistical analysis?
Is that better?
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What if I were to be specific and say that I hate have never had the right teacher who could fill me with a sense of wonder about advanced algebra and statistical analysis?
Is that better?
Fixed!
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I have never had the right teacher who could fill me with a sense of wonder about geometry
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Math is amazing. I never had to do more than tenth-grade geometry, but when my sister fell in love with math when she belatedly went to college, I used to spend hours talking with her about things about which I understood barely anything: unreal numbers, number theory, that kind of thing. We had a lot of fun. It was then that I learned how close math is to mysticism.
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It's a good point. It probably applies even more so to physics, which I don't even try to keep up with anymore. Just basic reading on Godel's Incompleteness Theorem is enough to push you over the edge. That's a little like the formal math counterpart to the sentence (with apologies to Raymod Smullyan) "This sentence is false." Go ahead and play with it, it won't hurt you.
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Dave, have you heard the Beyond the Fringe bit that features a conversation between Bertrand Russell and G. E. Moore? If not, you should try to check it out; I think it will make you very happy.
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My disdain towards statistics doesn't have to do so much with being BAD at them... it's that I had to do stats for my last job a lot and I just got so tired of it.
I like words better than numberz. Even though my grammar isn't much better than my algebra ability.
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If you wrote a full manifesto against math haters, I would read it.
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I hate math haters, especially the ones that don't know anything about math besides how to add and multiply. That's as stupid as a four year old who's learning the alphabet hating to read. Math haters are narrow-minded.
theyre generally the same people who are awful at basic english grammar.
not always, but generally.
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Calculus was kind of fun, but I don't want to do anything beyond that.
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I get hating math haters. Its similiar to computers in that some people don't even try and then they say they hate something. But as someone who can't for the life of me learn a second language, I understand math haters even if I am not one.
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I'm one of those people who was good at geometry, okay at my probability and statistics class (that's the math class you take in high school when you're too lazy/artistic/stupid for pre-calc or whatevs), but Algebra 2 was one of the first times I was like "I am honestly not smart enough for this. I cannot understand what is going on." I even tried to do tutorials after class with my teacher, and my dad would try to help me at home, and I still technically failed Algebra 2 out of sheer not-getting-it. I honestly tried my best, and my best was honestly not good enough, but my teacher passed me with a D because he told me he knew I tried my best. That was like a defining moment in my life, where I realized I had a very specific kind of brain. I was also like kicking ass in Advanced Placement Literature and shit at the time, so it's not like I was a dummy. Just not a math guy. So No, Math, I do not hate you, but you and I have separate paths to follow.
A.P. Biology also melted my brain. Our teacher would anthropomorphize molecules and say they were carrying buckets full of smaller molecules around with them. This was really hard for me to "get", because I kept thinking "A person is the walking, talking, bucket-carrying accumulation of molecules. Molecules cannot have personalities or qualities that we understand. How can a molecule 'carry' smaller molecules? Am I to believe molecules have temperaments?" and then I would just imagine some proto-Osmosis Jones fantasy world and get distracted. Also, science text books are poorly written and often eschew all laws of grammar, making them impossible for me to read.
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A.P. Biology also melted my brain. Our teacher would anthropomorphize molecules and say they were carrying buckets full of smaller molecules around with them. This was really hard for me to "get", because I kept thinking "A person is the walking, talking, bucket-carrying accumulation of molecules. Molecules cannot have personalities or qualities that we understand. How can a molecule 'carry' smaller molecules? Am I to believe molecules have temperaments?" and then I would just imagine some proto-Osmosis Jones fantasy world and get distracted.
i was waiting for john junk to reply to this post: "walking, talking, bucket-carrying accumulation of molecules"
...ha.
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I should have graduated high school with an A average but finished with a B average because I failed trig my senior year. I never took a math course again. My advisor talked me into it, saying that it would look good on my college applications but it's not like I was trying to get into an Ivy League school. All it did was make for a stressful last semester and a lot of parental screaming. I could have done without that.
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You're absolutely correct, Julie: there are a lot of people out there who hate math.
If my eldest sister were posting this, she'd comment that she hates it when people say "math" when they mean "arithmetic." Does this bother you, DfK?
I absolutely can't stand it when people say math and mean arithmetic.
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If you wrote a full manifesto against math haters, I would read it.
i'll put my mathematics manifesto (rant) on my myspace page this weekend.
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I'm one of those people who was good at geometry, okay at my probability and statistics class (that's the math class you take in high school when you're too lazy/artistic/stupid for pre-calc or whatevs), but Algebra 2 was one of the first times I was like "I am honestly not smart enough for this. I cannot understand what is going on." I even tried to do tutorials after class with my teacher, and my dad would try to help me at home, and I still technically failed Algebra 2 out of sheer not-getting-it. I honestly tried my best, and my best was honestly not good enough, but my teacher passed me with a D because he told me he knew I tried my best. That was like a defining moment in my life, where I realized I had a very specific kind of brain. I was also like kicking ass in Advanced Placement Literature and shit at the time, so it's not like I was a dummy. Just not a math guy. So No, Math, I do not hate you, but you and I have separate paths to follow.
A.P. Biology also melted my brain. Our teacher would anthropomorphize molecules and say they were carrying buckets full of smaller molecules around with them. This was really hard for me to "get", because I kept thinking "A person is the walking, talking, bucket-carrying accumulation of molecules. Molecules cannot have personalities or qualities that we understand. How can a molecule 'carry' smaller molecules? Am I to believe molecules have temperaments?" and then I would just imagine some proto-Osmosis Jones fantasy world and get distracted. Also, science text books are poorly written and often eschew all laws of grammar, making them impossible for me to read.
if you were trying that hard and not getting it, it was the teacher. I noticed that most of the Math-Ed people in my classes were as clueless as most of the engineers in my lower level classes when it came to seeing the bigger picture.
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It was then that I learned how close math is to mysticism.
Now you can build the trireme and The Pyramids. Just a few more discoveries from JS Bach's Cathedral!
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(http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g69/forrestsimmonms/yawn.jpg)
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(http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g69/forrestsimmonms/yawn.jpg)
Forrest just slagged my whole reason for living, but it was funny, so I will forgive him.
I totally get people who DON'T get math. I've met many of them. I often say in my classes that the ability to do math or not do math has absolutely nothing to do with how good a person you are. It just means that some administrators designing your program have decided for whatever reason that this course is a necesary hurdle for you to prove you can jump over. My job is to help you jump that hurdle, particularly if you are working really hard at it, and participating in class, and attending regularly. But even given all that, I can't let you through unless you do prove you can do it, but even if you don't make it through, it makes you no less of a good person.
Sorry about that horrible grammar, John Junk, but Andy from Knoxville's pressuring me to take him to the basketball game.
Later!
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I had a professor in college who talked a lot about "innumeracy"--essentially, a kind of mathematical illiteracy. We talked a lot about the double standard that innumeracy brings: people talk about "being terrible at math" or being unable to do simple arithmetic without batting an eye, but admitting one can't read is a whole different story of shame.
I enjoyed math classes enough in high school, but I resented having to do problem sets when all I really wanted to do was read novels. I was one of those kids who loved stuff like "Flatland" but could only be bothered to pull Bs on tests because I'd rather be reading. Now I really wish I knew more calculus!
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i don't hate math. math hates me.
it refuses to give me the right answer - ever.
thankfully i was able to fill my college math requirement (at Purchase) by taking The History of Math.
when i got around to taking the GREs, it had been like 5 years since i had seen a math problem. I went in with this optimism, "I just have to visualize the problems" and i went through the practice test with the utmost confidence and i was like "Finally ! I get math! It all makes perfect sense!" but then it turned out i still got all the answers wrong.
i guess i'm innumerate. no worries though, my trusty cell phone has a calculator!
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I kind of hate math rock.
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I kind of hate math rock.
On behalf of Slint, Smart Went Crazy, The Vehicle Birth, Shudder to Think, The Dismemberment Plan, Medications, Robots, Trans Am, Lynx(Boston), and most of the music I grew up with, you're wrong!
(or rather, I disagree, and possibly may have long forgotten the difference bewteen between post-punk and math-rock. I might need help from Chris L. or Josh on this one.)
Point is, I love math rock! And math!
[youtube]-TZHDpMatAM[/youtube]
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(or rather, I disagree, and possibly may have long forgotten the difference bewteen between post-punk and math-rock. I might need help from Chris L. or Josh on this one.)
I think it's probably safe enough to say that all math rock is also postpunk. Postpunk is the greater umbrella under which math rock would most reasonably fall.
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I was always really good at my math classes (I pretty much ruined the curve for the rest of the students in my college Integral Calculus class) but was never sufficiently obsessed by it to do anything but take the required classes.
When I watch the movie Pi, though, I think maybe I should've pursued it more.
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You yearn for headaches that drive you to take a drill to your skull?
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Math geniuses are the new mad scientist.
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math is for squares.
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I have to get an accountant this year. Every year I calculate everything wrong on my taxes and the IRS sends me a correction letter.
Also, you forgot Don Caballero.
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(or rather, I disagree, and possibly may have long forgotten the difference bewteen between post-punk and math-rock. I might need help from Chris L. or Josh on this one.)
I think it's probably safe enough to say that all math rock is also postpunk. Postpunk is the greater umbrella under which math rock would most reasonably fall.
I'm more talking about the phrase "math rock". Post punk is awesome, don't get me wrong, and I love noise music and noise rock, but I cringe whenever I hear that phrase.
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I have to get an accountant this year. Every year I calculate everything wrong on my taxes and the IRS sends me a correction letter.
Filing taxes requires you to know a lot of rules that you will never know unless you use them all the time. If you use some computer package, it requires you to have not to make any typing mistakes. The mathematics involved in taxes is nothing besides addition and division. I think the whole tax thing is just a conspiracy by accountants.
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I learned nothing about math in elementary school and then, in grade 7, started going to a school where everything was skipped up a grade; I didn't even know how to multiply properly, and all of a sudden I was with all these super-smart kids doing grade eight math. I never really caught up, and my math experience has always been pretty terrible--freaking out over tests, spending hours every week in tutoring, etc. The whole stupid thing culminated last summer when i decided to finish my math credits in summer school, and ended up in a school two hours away from my house getting taught by a verbally abusive, racist, sexist, homophobic asshole who liked to throw chairs and who drove no less than ten people out of the class with his insults.
In spite of all this, I have never been a math hater. I think it's a really cool sort of language, and I only wish I had been able to understand it earlier because after all that I never want to touch it again.
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I have to get an accountant this year. Every year I calculate everything wrong on my taxes and the IRS sends me a correction letter.
Filing taxes requires you to know a lot of rules that you will never know unless you use them all the time. If you use some computer package, it requires you to have not to make any typing mistakes. The mathematics involved in taxes is nothing besides addition and division. I think the whole tax thing is just a conspiracy by accountants.
the only requirement is to sign and date; it comes with instructions.
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I have to get an accountant this year. Every year I calculate everything wrong on my taxes and the IRS sends me a correction letter.
Filing taxes requires you to know a lot of rules that you will never know unless you use them all the time. If you use some computer package, it requires you to have not to make any typing mistakes. The mathematics involved in taxes is nothing besides addition and division. I think the whole tax thing is just a conspiracy by accountants.
the only requirement is to sign and date; it comes with instructions.
Look, I may be bad at math, but i'm not retarded. I know it comes with instructions. You still have to add and subtract and I'm not good at that. Plus, if you work for more than one employer, and one of those employers is the state, or if you work in two different states, or if you don't know what you are and are not exempted from, etc., then there's a whole lot that can go wrong.
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I agree. I hate all/any forms. I always mess them up. Especially forms that have to do with anything official, like taxes. They're complicated and written in confusing language and there are too many exceptions that seem to contradict everything - making it harder to know what to write in or what category you fall into to. And every time you get a new job you have to know things about your taxes from the previous year. WTF!? And then finally you get it all over with somehow and then before you know it you're getting those stupid "IMPORTANT TAX INFO ENCLOSED" envelopes again and you have a new stack of mail that you hate.
Forms. I hate forms!
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I have to get an accountant this year. Every year I calculate everything wrong on my taxes and the IRS sends me a correction letter.
Filing taxes requires you to know a lot of rules that you will never know unless you use them all the time. If you use some computer package, it requires you to have not to make any typing mistakes. The mathematics involved in taxes is nothing besides addition and division. I think the whole tax thing is just a conspiracy by accountants.
the only requirement is to sign and date; it comes with instructions.
Look, I may be bad at math, but i'm not retarded. I know it comes with instructions. You still have to add and subtract and I'm not good at that. Plus, if you work for more than one employer, and one of those employers is the state, or if you work in two different states, or if you don't know what you are and are not exempted from, etc., then there's a whole lot that can go wrong.
The comment wasn't in reference to you but rather towards julies comment on "rules" and "conspiracies".
I've had the same trouble with double/triple checking the math. I won't fault anyone for that.
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I kind of hate math rock.
[starbucksgirl]Really?[/starbucksgirl]
[youtube]X5e3WHdvsms[/youtube]
[youtube]RdPIfMO28ck[/youtube]
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Live shows are good but when it comes to recordings math rock is kind of crappy. It's the experience. You're Mathrockheads.
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I'm more talking about the phrase "math rock". Post punk is awesome, don't get me wrong, and I love noise music and noise rock, but I cringe whenever I hear that phrase.
Yes, I'm on board with you on that one. I do not care much for the phrase myself. I like several bands that would possibly fall under that classification, but I don't feel as though the term "math rock" does them justice generally. Feels like a lazy attempt to make something complex into something simple and easy to identify.
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I have to get an accountant this year. Every year I calculate everything wrong on my taxes and the IRS sends me a correction letter.
Filing taxes requires you to know a lot of rules that you will never know unless you use them all the time. If you use some computer package, it requires you to have not to make any typing mistakes. The mathematics involved in taxes is nothing besides addition and division. I think the whole tax thing is just a conspiracy by accountants.
the only requirement is to sign and date; it comes with instructions.
Look, I may be bad at math, but i'm not retarded. I know it comes with instructions. You still have to add and subtract and I'm not good at that. Plus, if you work for more than one employer, and one of those employers is the state, or if you work in two different states, or if you don't know what you are and are not exempted from, etc., then there's a whole lot that can go wrong.
that's not math, though.
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if you were trying that hard and not getting it, it was the teacher.
Can this really be said with certainty? For instance--I've been playing guitar for 35 years, and am never going to get past a certain, sadly average level. And it's not for lack of trying, or the lack of competent instruction.
Aren't some people better at things because they are simply better suited to those things (for whatever reasons) and not because they weren't taught well?
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I'm more talking about the phrase "math rock". Post punk is awesome, don't get me wrong, and I love noise music and noise rock, but I cringe whenever I hear that phrase.
Yes, I'm on board with you on that one. I do not care much for the phrase myself. I like several bands that would possibly fall under that classification, but I don't feel as though the term "math rock" does them justice generally. Feels like a lazy attempt to make something complex into something simple and easy to identify.
Yes! Thank you streetcleaner.
Lightning Bolt: unquestionably amazing.
By the way, did anyone see that movie "B.I.K.E."? With that ultra annoying guy who's trying to get into the bike gang and he ends up being so annoying that they kick him out? His blatant misuse of Lightning Bolt in his short film reached offensive levels.
This section of the post probably belongs in the "hate pit continued" thread. Oh well.
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(or rather, I disagree, and possibly may have long forgotten the difference bewteen between post-punk and math-rock. I might need help from Chris L. or Josh on this one.)
I think it's probably safe enough to say that all math rock is also postpunk. Postpunk is the greater umbrella under which math rock would most reasonably fall.
I'm more talking about the phrase "math rock". Post punk is awesome, don't get me wrong, and I love noise music and noise rock, but I cringe whenever I hear that phrase.
yeah, music genre labels can cause a lot of confusion. When I think of post punk I don’t think of math rock, more like early ‘80’s bands like Gang Of Four, The Mekons, Fire Engines, Abwarts,etc. Some people think of post punk as industrial music like Neubauten and Test Dept.
And is noise really post punk, considering noise kind of predates punk? Like, Metal Machine Music by Lou Reed or earlier stuff, like AMM, Luigi Russolo, Nihilist Spasm band and so on.
And really, what is noise music? There are so many subgenres of noise when I think of Japanese bands like The Incapacitants, Hijokaidan, and, well, Merzbow. European noise such as Whitehouse, Sudden Infant, Runzelstirn & Gurgelstock gets a lot of respect. And the current American noise stuff out there like Prurient, Tesco Terror, Yellow Swans, Wolf Eyes (who get classified as noise but are, in my opinion, actually closer to something like Throbbing Gristle) and a bunch more with pretty offensive names that I don’t feel that comfortable listing here. But on the other hand, how can I leave out a great band like Two Dead Sl**ts, One Good F**ck. And within noise let’s not forget subgenres such as Power Electronics, Harsh Noise and Noise Core, which are all something completely different again.
Yeah, I agree, Lightning Bolt are great. They’re pretty popular; everyone seems to like them. I don’t see them as math rock, though. Lighting Bolt, to my mind, is just Lightning Bolt – they’re their own thing. I think they do probably belong to the math rock lineage, but they seem to have somehow transended it. It's so subjective. What kills me about that clip is that the whole song sounds like a big finish, right from the get go.
Hella, on the other hand is more like my idea of math rock. They almost seem burdened by their own convoluted time signatures (haha). Maybe what Tom doesn’t like about Zappa, complexity for the sake of complexity – music that doesn’t go anywhere. All that Slint stuff – ugh, so plodding.
I’m not really sure what “noise rock” is, though – maybe Harry Pussy? I really liked them live in the ‘90’s, awesome drummer, so much energy.
But everything is noise these days. I’ve even heard Animal Collective get labeled as noise – I just think of them as shit.
Hey, and also, where does post rock fit in?
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if you were trying that hard and not getting it, it was the teacher.
Can this really be said with certainty? For instance--I've been playing guitar for 35 years, and am never going to get past a certain, sadly average level. And it's not for lack of trying, or the lack of competent instruction.
Aren't some people better at things because they are simply better suited to those things (for whatever reasons) and not because they weren't taught well?
Some people are better at some things, but like you said, you can be average. I assume you can also read and write. Math isn't difficult for average people unless some idiot makes it difficult.
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I think that what gets labeled as 'noise' these days come from such a wide range of influences, it's hard to draw it all under one umbrella (even one as broad as "postpunk"). A lot of these acts draw from wholly disparate threads of music. Merzbow and Coughs really do not relate to one another at all. I see a lot of the current crop of American noise, a la the stuff on Load or Skin Graft as being mostly descended almost directly from No Wave. But it also draws somewhat from Amrep-era noise rock, which was probably more about Flipper-esque punk than No Wave. Coughs are definitely postpunk in nature, but I would be slow to pin Whitehouse as such.
The fact that Wolf Eyes is not looked upon as highly traditional industrial music says more about how contemporary industrial music has strayed from its roots than the fact that Wolf Eyes is really doing anything new.
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This discussion about noise vs. experimental vs. electronics vs. industrial vs. postpunk deserves its own thread. But there probably already is one, right senior FOT's? Link me please!
<insert link here>
I think it's all pretty subjective though, based on the dynamics of sound. If you listen to Pauline Oliveros or Raymond Scott, it's mostly straightforward electronics. If you delve into the early "noise collages" of the 1930's, 40's, and 50's, (Walter Ruttman being one of my favorites), you might just call that experimental and random. As for Coughs, I don't know that I'd even consider them noise music. Merzbow I would definitely consider to be downright noise music. I'm not sure why, exactly, but I think it has something to do with the random dynamics. Bands like Coughs, Sunburned Hand of the Man, kk rampage, even Hawkwind, I would consider to all be in the same realm of Ultra-noisy rock. That's going by my own definition of rock: anything that is beat-driven and/or inclines one to dance or move (or rock, as some might say in olde-times).
One could also go so far as to say that noise music predates all forms of rock, begining with Igor Stravinsky. Thoughts on this?
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I have got to get a math rock accountant this year.
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I think Coughs are (were) pretty much a true-to-form contemporary No Wave band. Pretty sure that Aids Wolf actually claim to be No Wave. Though this has interesting implications given the similarities between Aids Wolf and Lightning Bolt. All I know is people are actually bandying about the term No Wave with more seriousness these days than they were 10 years ago, even though noisy bands certainly existed then too.
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Math is boring. There's no denying that. If you do deny it, you're delusional.
0123456789 - That all you got? WEAK. Numbers are lame.
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You can't tell me that imaginary numbers aren't interesting!
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/math/e/4/f/e4fcad0d6bc0c9476b09cb7bd3b1f92d.png)
It's like Sanskrit!
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I think Coughs are (were) pretty much a true-to-form contemporary No Wave band. Pretty sure that Aids Wolf actually claim to be No Wave. Though this has interesting implications given the similarities between Aids Wolf and Lightning Bolt. All I know is people are actually bandying about the term No Wave with more seriousness these days than they were 10 years ago, even though noisy bands certainly existed then too.
(http://www.fussybaby.ca/images/Baby%20yawning.jpg)
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(http://www.fussybaby.ca/images/Baby%20yawning.jpg)
I don't get it. Does that mean you're bored again? If it does it means you're boring (according to Bratmobile)
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I think Coughs are (were) pretty much a true-to-form contemporary No Wave band. Pretty sure that Aids Wolf actually claim to be No Wave. Though this has interesting implications given the similarities between Aids Wolf and Lightning Bolt. All I know is people are actually bandying about the term No Wave with more seriousness these days than they were 10 years ago, even though noisy bands certainly existed then too.
all this new "NO Wave" is just too professional AND too ambitious for it's own good...bearing very little resemblance to those classy originals IMHO... it all died with hARRY pUSSY !! Please no more serious bandying
thank you
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(http://www.fussybaby.ca/images/Baby%20yawning.jpg)
I don't get it. Does that mean you're bored again? If it does it means you're boring (according to Bratmobile)
I'm piggybacking on someone else's bored baby. The first bored baby was bored with math discussion. My bored baby is bored with math rock talk. It's not so much that I'm boring as that maybe I shouldn't visit this board 400 times a day (wait, I guess that means I am boring).
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You can't tell me that imaginary numbers aren't interesting!
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/math/e/4/f/e4fcad0d6bc0c9476b09cb7bd3b1f92d.png)
It's like Sanskrit!
I think imaginary numbers are boring. People only think they are interesting because they are called imaginary.
Math is boring. There's no denying that. If you do deny it, you're delusional.
0123456789 - That all you got? WEAK. Numbers are lame.
I hate everyone who is proud to be ignorant.
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Math is boring. There's no denying that. If you do deny it, you're delusional.
0123456789 - That all you got? WEAK. Numbers are lame.
I hate everyone who is proud to be ignorant.
I knows my math. Jus cuz I find it boring don't make me no kinda ignorant.
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(http://www.fussybaby.ca/images/Baby%20yawning.jpg)
I don't get it. Does that mean you're bored again? If it does it means you're boring (according to Bratmobile)
I'm piggybacking on someone else's bored baby. The first bored baby was bored with math discussion. My bored baby is bored with math rock talk. It's not so much that I'm boring as that maybe I shouldn't visit this board 400 times a day (wait, I guess that means I am boring).
Come now, you know that I jest. I'm probably just as boring as the next guy/gal. I like boring baby; he/she is cute.
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Math is boring. There's no denying that. If you do deny it, you're delusional.
0123456789 - That all you got? WEAK. Numbers are lame.
I hate everyone who is proud to be ignorant.
I knows my math. Jus cuz I find it boring don't make me no kinda ignorant.
then you're stoopid