FOT Forum
FOT Community => General Discussion => Topic started by: Matthew_S on June 10, 2008, 10:33:49 AM
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I am looking to replace my desktop PC, acquired in 1998. It suited our needs until about 2-3 years ago when the laptop took over.
I've never had an Apple computer but my wife is interested in getting one as she thinks it will be easier for her and the kids to use. We aren't doing anything too demanding on the computer so highest specs are not essential but I am willing to pay more now if it will last another year or two down the road.
Thoughts on Macs v PCs? Should I just get another laptop?
Related tangent --
Do Macs run all PC software now?
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Do Macs run all PC software now?
since all current macs run on intel processors, you can boot a mac onto a windows partition drive using boot camp (http://www.apple.com/macosx/features/bootcamp.html) a system feature, or run windows software inside mac os x using a program called parallels (http://www.parallels.com/).
i've been a lifetime mac user and love them. they are great for kids, creative professionals or anyone else who doesn't feel like battling with their computer all the time. if your monitor is not too old, you can use all your old hardware with the relatively inexpensive mac mini (http://www.apple.com/macmini/). if you just want to start new, you can buy a new imac (http://www.apple.com/imac/) for around a thousand dollars.
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Interesting timing, I just took my first Mac out of the box last night. This is after doing web design for ten years and being subjected to endless Mac fanboy proclamations. I think I may have held onto PCs all this time just to spite them.
I spent the evening installing general tools to make workflow easier (Quicksilver, VMWare Fusion) and the sheer simplicity of it was impressive. I've used other peoples' Macs on and off for years, but setting one up and configuring it myself was a new step, yet really intuitive and clean, like everything else they design. Anyway, the machine in question is a Mac Book Pro 15", bought from the Apple refurb store (http://store.apple.com/1-800-MY-APPLE/WebObjects/AppleStore.woa/wa/RSLID?sf=wHF2F2PHCCCX72KDY&nclm=CertifiedMac). I think it was money well spent.
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Yes, you should get a Mac.
The ultimate reason is that the system is better organized and more capable than the spaghetti code disorganized nonsense that is Windows. Also, the quality of software on the Mac is noticeably higher, with a level of fit and finish that even most third party apps have.
I'm a grade A computer nerd. I know whereof I speak. I have been 100% Mac since 2002 after years of being a huge Windows dork. I have used Macs in law firms, school, etc, battling dumbass IT guys all the way who like to invent reasons why they don't support Macs. I need to boot into Windows for the odd piece of software, but that's very rare. Maybe once every few months. I'm currently running XP at work, unfortunately, and it is noticeably inferior for most of the basic, everyday things I expect. Just little stuff like no system-wide, consistent spellchecker.
If you want to compare costs between Macs and PCs, please please compare like with like. There are no really low end Macs. So you have to compare similar specs-- the cheapest Dell will always be cheaper than the cheapest Mac, because Apple usually stopped making machines like the cheapest Dell 4 years ago. Sometimes Macs are cheaper that the exact same hardware in a different case from IBM or Sony. Even the Macbook Air costs about the same as similar machines from other vendors. Sometimes there's no way to know because Apple makes a form factor that others don't, i.e., the iMac. But the price comparison stuff drives me bonkers, because it often ignores qualitative differences.
As far as running Windows software:
First of all, I almost never need to. There's usually a superior Mac alternative to any given piece of Windows software, or an outright Mac version.
Since a Mac is the same as a PC from a fundamental hardware architecture perspective, you can run Windows on a Mac. This is not something that Apple "lets" you do; this is not something that requires that you use software called "Boot Camp." A Mac simply is a PC that you can run Windows on. People complicate this too much. You only need Boot Camp in order to make it so that you can dual boot between the OSs, which is naturally a bit trickier. Apple also provides Windows drivers for its hardware, in the same way that all computer makers do.
Also, you can run your very same Windows installation inside a window, or full screen, from within the Mac OS, if you buy separate software. Drag and drop, cooy and paste, etc, are supported as between the OSs. I enjoy pushing a button an having my Macbook switch from one OS to another on occasion.
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Jerk response: It depends, are you rich? If so, go for the Mac.
(I use a PC, but I'm not a "PC guy" - Macs are great, but I just can't justify buying one considering what they cost.)
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What's funny was Jason asked me about Macs earlier today I figured this was his post. Now with boot camp and the large HD that come wit the Imacs yes you can run pretty much all of the pc software you want.
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If you are in any way affiliated (or someone you know is affiliated) with a university or college you should abuse their educators' discount. They take 10% off the machine, you can get a free iPod touch right now (after rebate) plus Adobe is running a special where you can purchase their premium design suite (Photoshop, Illustrator, Flash, the whole works) for $400 which usually runs something like $1700.
I just did this very thing and I couldn't believe that let me walk out the door with all that stuff. I felt like I was robbing the place.
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Also, if cost really is a concern, don't buy a PC because you have decided in the abstract that "PCs are cheaper" but then the *actual* PC you buy is not cheaper than a similar Mac. I know someone who did that. It makes no sense.
(If you want cheap, you should be running Ubuntu anyway.)
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Yes, you should. No spyware, no viruses, intuitive software. I love it.
Also, setting up your Mac is literally as easy as taking it out of the box and plugging it in. Seriously.
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I like PC's because they are easy to upgrade and keep current. I know you can do that with a Mac but it's not as easy. I don't like the way Apple takes control away from the computer owners.
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My two cents say yes, get a mac, and avoid using Boot Camp.
Opening Boot Camp exposes you to all the internet junk and viruses that infect PC's so often, and Mac's warranties don't include and virus-related fatalities that spring from Boot Camp.
They know that you're pretty much opening up a kissing booth at a Free Clinic and don't want any part of it. (Yet they'll supply you with the program... that den of THEIVES.)
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Go with a Jockputer with Squat-Thrust 2006 Operating System.
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I like PC's because they are easy to upgrade and keep current. I know you can do that with a Mac but it's not as easy. I don't like the way Apple takes control away from the computer owners.
Are you joking?
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I like PC's because they are easy to upgrade and keep current. I know you can do that with a Mac but it's not as easy. I don't like the way Apple takes control away from the computer owners.
Are you joking?
there's something to what Gilly writes. Mac hardware is a lot less modifiable than a PC's.
Beyond installing RAM though, there's not a lot of reason for me to fool around with Apple's superior engineering.
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Nope. I've been able to keep a computer I bought in 1999 running... not only running but I've kept it current at a very low price and it's been very easy to do. It's no secret that Jobs is a control freak that wants Apple to be in charge of everything after the purchase is made. I don't like that one bit. PC's might look a little less desirable but that tower is able to be easily opened to add or remove anything you want to. Apple expects that owners will buy a new computer every 2-3 years to get upgrades.
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If you're the kind of person that likes to built your own computer and boot it up in DOS and stare at code, then PC is right for you, but you won't get the performance out of graphic or editing software, which is where Mac's come into their own.
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I don't know anyone aside from serious tinkerers who had ever "upgraded" anything a computer besides RAM or maybe a hard drive.
And OS X is more amenable to geeks because of its unix geneology. It is also pretty easy to trick it out in more superficial ways, but again, if you're into tinkering and total customizability you should be running some kind of Linux.
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I recently added more RAM to my Mac. Craaaaaaaaazy easy. Just don't buy it from Apple.com. It's twice as expensive.
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Things I've upgraded on my PC (bought in '99)
-DVD burner
-USB 2.0 ports
-Graphics card
-Audio card
-RAM
-Hard drive
-Monitor
-Keyboard
New technology comes along every day and computers that aren't upgradeable will look ancient next year.
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Things I've upgraded on my PC (bought in '99)
-DVD burner
-USB 2.0 ports
-Graphics card
-Audio card
-RAM
-Hard drive
-Monitor
-Keyboard
New technology comes along every day and computers that aren't upgradeable will look ancient next year.
Thanks for giving lots to think about folks.. keep it coming.
On this point, I am certainly not a 'serious tinkerer' but I did manage to keep my 98 booming until 2005. Like Gilly, I too added in parts (new ram, new cd drive, USB ports...) as I needed and that let me Not buy a whole new machine.
Will a new iMac expire in 3 years?
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Things I've upgraded on my PC (bought in '99)
-DVD burner
-USB 2.0 ports
-Graphics card
-Audio card
-RAM
-Hard drive
-Monitor
-Keyboard
New technology comes along every day and computers that aren't upgradeable will look ancient next year.
There's something to this. I work in a lab that uses both windows and mac machines. When bits of the macs have expired, it was much harder than you would think to get information about how to replace them. The actual replacement of the parts was not terribly complicated, it's just that there isn't (at least in my small town) the IT infrastructure to help me figure it out.
Most computer nerds are windows guys, and that makes it much easier to fix or upgrade a windows machine.
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Honestly, I switched from a PC to a Mac Mini after years of not believing the hype and have loved it. I'll need to buy a new one in a few years, but having something that doesn't mean that I have to come home and mess with drivers and codecs and viruses has been a dream. And the minis are relatively cheap if you already have all of the other stuff (monitor, keyboards). I'd suggest poking around Small Dog - a great little company with good prices and good support, and they like dogs! http://www.smalldog.com/ They sell refurbished stuff for cheap, too. At work, I run three computers and most of the time the PC is either in the shop for repair or turned off.
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It all depends on what you use it for. At some point, they stop releasing updates for it after three years or so, but if it still works for what you need, then go with god.
I have to buy a new mac every three years or so, but the upside of that is it's easy to transfer data and the price of the new modals remains consistent.
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Jerk response: It depends, are you rich? If so, go for the Mac.
(I use a PC, but I'm not a "PC guy" - Macs are great, but I just can't justify buying one considering what they cost.)
i second this.
-iAmBaronVonJerk
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I guess for upgrading, I was thinking more of upgrading the actual processor. That's usually what gets me to buy a new computer, and replacing a motherboard is usually more of a hassle than buying a new machine. I generally tend to try to futureproof my machines when I buy them in terms of peripherals. I kind of want to avoid buying any computer until (if) Blu-Ray becomes standard, and maybe OLED screens are available.
On the one hand, you can resell an older iMac if you can't repurpose it (their value holds up really well: I sold a 3 1/2 year old iBook for $500 once), but it is kind of lame to have to buy a new monitor all the time. The Mac mini can only power 1 monitor at a time which rules it out for me, and the Mac Pro, even the lower end one, is really aimed at people who are willing to spend. (It is, by the way, far easier to upgrade a Mac Pro than any PC I've ever seen. Drives literally snap into place, there's plenty of room, etc.)
So for that reason, while the Mac is a definite home run for laptops, the lack of a mid-range tower or pizza box (more upgradable than the mini but less high-end than the pro) does make the calculation there a little tougher. Still worth it, I think.
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I know little about computers. I just got a Mac because my PC notebook was about 4 years old and did not have the processor to handle much. I'm really glad I made the switch. The Mac starts up in less than a minute. The old PC, running XP, took about 5 minutes and I heard that delay is just as bad with Vista.
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New technology comes along every day and computers that aren't upgradeable will look ancient next year.
Like Yesno's computer?
Personally, I like the Brazil/warped 1950s look better. Like the ElectriClerk computer:
(http://www.ahleman.com/Props/ECDetail.gif)
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i recently bought a lenovo laptop for 400 bucks and its working like a champ.
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I need a laptop for next year, and I'm very conflicted about what to get. Everyone points to MacBooks as being great, but I really hate the OS X interface. Converts, did you have trouble getting used to it?
And, while I'm at it, I might as well ask if anyone knows anything about the general reliability of HP laptops.
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And, while I'm at it, I might as well ask if anyone knows anything about the general reliability of HP laptops.
I love mine!
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And, while I'm at it, I might as well ask if anyone knows anything about the general reliability of HP laptops.
I love mine!
I love mine too! FACT: I'm using it right now!
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Thanks! That might make my decision a bit easier.
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I'm two weeks into using mine (Mac Book Pro) after 10 years of PCs - I don't think I'll ever go back. I got used to the OS in about two days, and realized how much orderly and stable it was compared to XP. Workflow is tons easier thanks to Quicksilver. Installing and configuring apps has been a complete no-brainer. I've literally read no tips or documentation, just dove into it and hit no snags.
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theyve got windows for mac now, don't they? that might make a difference for you, LeGnome.
im all over the macbook, but its too expensive. ive decided to go for the mac mini instead. unfortunately, you only save by a few hundred after you purchase extras you may need (external hard drive, software, et al.)
...but a few hundred saved=a few more records!
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I really hate the OS X interface. Converts, did you have trouble getting used to it?
I'm wondering what you don't like about it? Apart from cosmetic differences, pretty much all GUIs are the same (or have arbitrary differences you have to just learn), with a couple of exceptions.
The biggest exception is the handling of "windows" versus "applications." On the Mac, you run an application that creates windows. But a window is not the same as an application, and for the most part closing a window does not close an application.
On Windows, it can be impossible to tell whether you're running two instances of one program, or a single application that has spawned two windows. On the Mac, multiple windows belonging to the same application always belong to a single instance of the same program, and you can control the application itself, as opposed to a window the application has created, through the menubar. This seems like a pointless complication to some Windows users, but the lack of a global way to control a program as opposed to a window has led to weird constructs like "main windows" and, even worse, the multiple document interface (where a program spawns little captive windows within itself) in order to keep things straight. The latest Windows Excel *still* uses MDI. Madness.
Another difference is that most Mac programs don't have the ability to maximize (you can manually make them fill the screen, of course). The zoom button is supposed to expand the window to display its contents, but no further. I think this is a good thing, because just maximizing a window habitually defeats the purpose of a multi-window GUI, makes direct manipulation harder (can't just drag an image from a website to the desktop, for instance), makes task switching slower, etc etc, but people like what they're used to an a lot of people see that lack of maximize as a flaw. A better way to work distraction free is just to hide all the applications you're not using (cmd-option-h).
Also, the preferred way of operating on a Mac is through drag and drop, as opposed to constantly navigating through menus. You can launch a file in a non-default media player like VLC by just dragging to onto the dock icon, for instance, instead of opening the program and going through File->Open, etc. You can do it either way, but drag and drop is much faster. It still amazes me that on XP you can't just drop a file onto a taskbar icon, though maybe Vista has fixed this.
Also expose is awesome. And you can tell I'm on Windows right not because it's too much of a hassle to actually input foreign characters. Can't just do option-e+e.
The biggest thing with learning a new system is that you might not care enough about computers to bother learning something new when what you already know works fine.
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theyve got windows for mac now, don't they? that might make a difference for you, LeGnome.
That's what I've been considering doing- if I would need to get a separate copy of XP anyway (since the HP I've been looking at only comes with Vista), I could always just use that on a MacBook. It just seems a bit silly to buy one type of computer expressly to use another kind on it.
The biggest exception is the handling of "windows" versus "applications." On the Mac, you run an application that creates windows. But a window is not the same as an application, and for the most part closing a window does not close an application.
The biggest thing with learning a new system is that you might not care enough about computers to bother learning something new when what you already know works fine.
My issue exactly. I'm not convinced that I should bother learning a different system when they're essentially the same idea in the end (and I've used both enough to be sure of that).
I'm two weeks into using mine (Mac Book Pro) after 10 years of PCs - I don't think I'll ever go back. I got used to the OS in about two days, and realized how much orderly and stable it was compared to XP. Workflow is tons easier thanks to Quicksilver. Installing and configuring apps has been a complete no-brainer. I've literally read no tips or documentation, just dove into it and hit no snags.
Thanks. I think what I'm taking away from all this is that I would be fine with either and I need to just make a decision.
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I recently added more RAM to my Mac. Craaaaaaaaazy easy. Just don't buy it from Apple.com. It's twice as expensive.
Anything I need to know? Or will I be able to figure this out by poking around in there?
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I recently added more RAM to my Mac. Craaaaaaaaazy easy. Just don't buy it from Apple.com. It's twice as expensive.
Anything I need to know? Or will I be able to figure this out by poking around in there?
Just never buy it from Apple. They'll mug you.
I bought Macbook RAM from www.crucial.com and it worked great.
Also, when you buy a computer, pay attention to whether you're getting RAM in one or two chips. ie, 1 gig in 1 chip means you have an open slot to put another 1 gig chip in. 1 gig in 2 512 chips means you have to throw away one or both chips to upgrade.