FOT Forum
FOT Community => General Discussion => Topic started by: yesno on July 21, 2008, 06:03:10 PM
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Since I've slagged on ska a few times on this board, but also because I think that most thinking people realize that ska as it has existed since the early 1990s or so is just about the stupidest kind of music, I thought that we could perhaps review what ska is actually not that bad.
* Most original Jamaican ska (the kind of stuff I only really know from Soul Jazz comps and the like)
* Lots of the the Two Tone stuff
* Particularly, the poppier stuff like Madness and English Beat, and some Specials
* I also still like Operation Ivy's ska songs
My theory as to why there is so much bad ska is that band nerds start playing it because it's the only kind of music they can use their instruments for.
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I still kinda like The Toasters :-[
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My theory as to why there is so much bad ska is that band nerds start playing it because it's the only kind of music they can use their instruments for.
That's not just a theory- that's hard fact. Marching band was huge at my high school, and I always saw fliers for bands claiming to be influenced by the most generic 90s ska bands advertising for drummers, singers, etc. (basically everything except horns). I myself have wished that there was some way to use a violin in rock music many times, but I have the common sense to have started playing the guitar instead of trying it.
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I love Toots & the Maytals and the Skatalites. I don't know if they'd really count as ska or reggae but both are great.
I think most ska/reggae is fine, pretty much up until the 1990s when you got more Warped Tour ska/pop-punk acts popping up everywhere and bands like 311 or Sublime hitting it big.
yesno -- that's definitely a true theory. I think most ska is also the easiest to play. Just listen to those guitar riffs that sound the same from song to song.
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I like Madness. they invented ska.
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I disliked all ska and don't even care for the Clash.
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I still kinda like The Toasters :-[
Ain't no shame in that game! "Run Rudy Run," "Decision at Midnight," "Now or Never" - amazing songs.
There was a whole bunch of great New York ska in the 80s - The Terrorists, The NY Citizens, The Toasters, Urban Blight (featuring Mackie from the Cro-Mags on drums), all the early Moon Records stuff, hell - I'd even put Fishbone in that category - it seems like they played with the Citizens or Murphy's Law every other weekend in '87-'88 (and they were amazing).
Obviously, The Specials - they still not only "hold up," but are better than most other bands ever (there've been a lot of bands throughout history, so it's not really that much of an overstatement, o.k.?).
Both Selector records are great.
Early Bob Marley/Wailers ska stuff is pretty unassailable in its awesomeness ("Maga Dog," "One Cup of Coffee," "Guava Jelly") - saying the Wailers suck because legions of idiots like them is like saying the same thing about the Beatles.
One of my favorite eras of music, in general, is when the original ska beat started slowing down, and DJs first came on the scene in Jamaica - so, like, all those great Studio One comps, early U-Roy and I-Roy, etc. (and the modern revivalists, like I-Ron, of course)...
If you go back one step further to Mento, you can kind of see the point at which what eventually became reggae split off from what was quickly becoming Calypso, too.
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I myself have wished that there was some way to use a violin in rock music many times,
The scientists over at the Dambuilders and Camper van Beethoven have been working on that one. ;)
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I still kinda like The Toasters :-[
Ain't no shame in that game!
I don't feel shame about it, because they make me so happy! It's a good natured blush. I wish they had a smiling embarrassed guy.
Summer really is the perfect time to reminisce about ska. I think I'll break out some Fishbone.
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I don't get how Ska is connected to the punk/rock side of things. I don't mind it but where did that come from to connect the two?
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I myself have wished that there was some way to use a violin in rock music many times,
The scientists over at the Dambuilders and Camper van Beethoven have been working on that one. ;)
I was kind of scared away from the idea entirely once Yellowcard became popular.
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I don't get how Ska is connected to the punk/rock side of things. I don't mind it but where did that come from to connect the two?
It's basically just an accident. Some punk guys got into reggae and ska in the 70s. It was briefly a symbol of racial harmony but I think it lasted because the musical styles are weirdly complementary. Punk rockers don't get to have ballads, so they dabble in ska instead. Something like that.
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I don't get how Ska is connected to the punk/rock side of things. I don't mind it but where did that come from to connect the two?
It's basically just an accident. Some punk guys got into reggae and ska in the 70s. It was briefly a symbol of racial harmony but I think it lasted because the musical styles are weirdly complementary. Punk rockers don't get to have ballads, so they dabble in ska instead. Something like that.
I would also guess that the whole 2-tone thing was going on in England in the late '70s, and it would be difficult for a musical subculture (especially one with political roots) to not sort of crash into punk rock and skinhead culture and stuff at the time?
Then again, I was not even close to being alive at that point, so what do I know?
(Answer: Very Little.)
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I myself have wished that there was some way to use a violin in rock music many times
(http://www.luminomagazine.com/2004.10/spotlight/nerds/images/poindexter/poindexter4.jpg)
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(http://clubpix.kingsnake.com/data/8248Yellowcard_0046-med.JPG)
Yellowcard were pretty awful. Keep the violin to classical music because you can rock just as hard playing classical. You might not go platinum but you'll still rock.
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It's basically just an accident. Some punk guys got into reggae and ska in the 70s. It was briefly a symbol of racial harmony but I think it lasted because the musical styles are weirdly complementary. Punk rockers don't get to have ballads, so they dabble in ska instead. Something like that.
That's what I think - those reggae/ska songs on punk records are kinda like punk-rock power ballads or something. I'm not saying they sound like power ballads, but rather they serve a similar purpose.
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Skatalites, Specials, OPIV...hell, I'll even go to bat for the Mighty Mighty Bosstones (totally blew Slapshot off the stage when I saw them live, because they were actually FUN for a change)
there's a great box set called Tougher Than Tough: The Story Of Jamaican Music that covers (from what I remember) rocksteady>ska>reggae>dancehall over 4 discs, which has some fantastic ska tunes.
Re: the violin in rock. Do you think that killer dirge of Venus in Furs would have been as effective w/o the viola (the violin's fat older brother)? I also consider the Dirty Three to be rock, as well as a great band.
(http://www.cbgb.com/shrine/photos/ebetroberts/Nico%20and%20John%20Cale.jpg)
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I don't get how Ska is connected to the punk/rock side of things. I don't mind it but where did that come from to connect the two?
It's basically just an accident. Some punk guys got into reggae and ska in the 70s. It was briefly a symbol of racial harmony but I think it lasted because the musical styles are weirdly complementary. Punk rockers don't get to have ballads, so they dabble in ska instead. Something like that.
I would also guess that the whole 2-tone thing was going on in England in the late '70s, and it would be difficult for a musical subculture (especially one with political roots) to not sort of crash into punk rock and skinhead culture and stuff at the time?
Then again, I was not even close to being alive at that point, so what do I know?
(Answer: Very Little.)
I think that's all part of it. The emigration of Caribbean people to England in the 50s and 60s put the underclasses of different races in close proximity for the first time (in England), and you had skins and mods first identifying with ska and soul, and then as punk and reggae emerged in the 70s, another level of identification. English ska band Symarip had, "Skinhead Moonstomp,", English reggae bands like Steel Pulse and Aswad played with punk bands frequently early on, Bob Marley had "Punky Reggae Party," etc. And from the other side, the Clash, Slits, and Ruts were being directly influenced by events in their own neighborhoods (Brixton riots, Notting Hill riots, etc.), and were reflecting that back in their affinity for and use of reggae. With the Specials, it's a little less organic, but kind of more interesting - they were all in various non-ska bands around Coventry, got together as a punk band, and then led by Jerry Dammers, they got out of just being a punk band as a direct reaction to months of violence at every single show, and they made a very conscious decision to create this "Two-Tone" imagery and present themselves as a true synthesis of complementary colors, ideas, and musical influences - actually trying to "bring people together." It was a high-minded concept, and was willfully trying to cement this punk and ska alliance. As with everything, a lot of what came in its wake (especially in the 90s) was crap, but...
Read this book!
Cut and Mix, by Dick Hebdige (http://www.amazon.com/Cut-Mix-Culture-Identity-Caribbean/dp/0415058759/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1216733879&sr=8-1)
There are chapters on ska, Two-Tone, and punk and reggae.
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You can't go wrong with Desmond Dekker and Dandy Livingston.
And TL's right - pre '75 Wailers should never be thrown under the bus.
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Skatalites, Specials, OPIV...hell, I'll even go to bat for the Mighty Mighty Bosstones (totally blew Slapshot off the stage when I saw them live, because they were actually FUN for a change)
I'm with you on the Bosstones. I always loved Ben "the Bosstone" Carr standing up there and just dancing and they are a fun live band.
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Other than Toots who I don't consider ska, I wouldn't be able to get through an entire ska album. But, even though I don't know too much about ska (except that Madness invented it like Samir has already pointed out) I think every ska band I've heard has had at least one decent song. But, that's limited to probably a 20-25 bands.
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(http://clubpix.kingsnake.com/data/8248Yellowcard_0046-med.JPG)
Yellowcard were pretty awful. Keep the violin to classical music because you can rock just as hard playing classical. You might not go platinum but you'll still rock.
Arcade Fire rocks it pretty hard onstage with the violins/violas
(http://babylonoise.files.wordpress.com/2007/05/sm_arcade_fire_k_n5e9300sized.jpg)
and my friend's band, Rasputina, rocks hard with the cellos.
(http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1155/1117342050_3b97a9f330.jpg)
Strings can rock and still sound great. It's all in the approach. And in not having flat ironed hair.
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The Arcade Fire doesn't really feature the strings though. In their "rocking" songs they aren't very noticeable and I can always go with strings in slow ballads.
Rasputina has been around for a long time right? If they're the same band I'm thinking of (which they probably are since it would be really weird to have two bands with the name Rasputina that feature a cello) you're right about that one. They make it work. The cello is a pretty rocking instrument though with kind of a gravely sound to it and so much range to work with.
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They have been around a while, I think about ten years at this point. That's great that you know about them!! Melora, (in the picture I posted) is a force to be reckoned with on the cello (as well as a superb mom and a wonderful friend).
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I knew a new agey goth chick who was really into Rasputina.
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Getting things back on track, Prince Buster and Derrick Morgan had a pretty good feud going that led to some great music.
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They have been around a while, I think about ten years at this point. That's great that you know about them!! Melora, (in the picture I posted) is a force to be reckoned with on the cello (as well as a superb mom and a wonderful friend).
A podcast I used to listen to was really into them, and I think she was on a bunch of times.
I guess what I mean is that you can't just substitute a violin (particularly a violin- the tone is very different from that of a cello) for a conventional rock instrument. I've done violin accompaniment in the past and that's gone well, but it's not suited to be a primary instrument in a traditional arrangement, which is mostly what I was thinking of at the time. I mostly suck at the violin and guitar separately now, so it worked out.
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I guess what I mean is that you can't just substitute a violin (particularly a violin- the tone is very different from that of a cello) for a conventional rock instrument. I've done violin accompaniment in the past and that's gone well, but it's not suited to be a primary instrument in a traditional arrangement, which is mostly what I was thinking of at the time. I mostly suck at the violin and guitar separately now, so it worked out.
Allison, have you ever heard Final Fantasy? It's the project of Owen Pallet, a Canadian violinist (I believe he was actually involved with Arcade Fire at one point). He doesn't rock by any means, but it is just him and his violin, and it's pretty great. Kind of what Jack Black referred to in High Fidelity as "sad bastard music" , but I like it. You being a former violinist, I thought you might appreciate a pop musician who's doing it up with a violin.
[youtube]Y8PZ8-cpWc4[/youtube]
Here's how he does things live:
[youtube]
pKLcmS02EQI[/youtube]
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I guess what I mean is that you can't just substitute a violin (particularly a violin- the tone is very different from that of a cello) for a conventional rock instrument. I've done violin accompaniment in the past and that's gone well, but it's not suited to be a primary instrument in a traditional arrangement, which is mostly what I was thinking of at the time. I mostly suck at the violin and guitar separately now, so it worked out.
Alison, have you ever heard Final Fantasy? It's the project of Owen Pallet, a Canadian violinist (I believe he was actually involved with Arcade Fire at one point). He doesn't rock by any means, but it is just him and his violin, and it's pretty great. Kind of what Jack Black referred to in High Fidelity as "sad bastard music" , but I like it. You being a former violinist, I thought you might appreciate a pop musician who's doing it up with a violin.
I love Owen Pallett so much! He's so weird and great. I've seen his fantastic projection-assisted live show a few times.
I've even got a Final Fantasy tote bag. I made the mistake of wearing it past a meeting of my school's Multi-Player Gaming Club (I am not kidding--it is our biggest extracurricular group by far) and everyone freaked out.
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Also, Kris Force from Amber Asylum. She's also performed with Swans and Neurosis.
There are a lot of examples of bands who've used violins, either regularly or sporadically.
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I guess what I mean is that you can't just substitute a violin (particularly a violin- the tone is very different from that of a cello) for a conventional rock instrument. I've done violin accompaniment in the past and that's gone well, but it's not suited to be a primary instrument in a traditional arrangement, which is mostly what I was thinking of at the time. I mostly suck at the violin and guitar separately now, so it worked out.
Alison, have you ever heard Final Fantasy? It's the project of Owen Pallet, a Canadian violinist (I believe he was actually involved with Arcade Fire at one point). He doesn't rock by any means, but it is just him and his violin, and it's pretty great. Kind of what Jack Black referred to in High Fidelity as "sad bastard music" , but I like it. You being a former violinist, I thought you might appreciate a pop musician who's doing it up with a violin.
I love Owen Pallett so much! He's so weird and great. I've seen his fantastic projection-assisted live show a few times.
I've even got a Final Fantasy tote bag. I made the mistake of wearing it past a meeting of my school's Multi-Player Gaming Club (I am not kidding--it is our biggest extracurricular group by far) and everyone freaked out.
He is weird and great!! I love that He Poos Clouds is based almost entirely on Dungeons and Dragons references. Awesome!!
Haha I love how we've gone from ska to strings. Oh FOT threads, I never know where you will lead.
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Tymon Dogg. He's cool.
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I guess what I mean is that you can't just substitute a violin (particularly a violin- the tone is very different from that of a cello) for a conventional rock instrument. I've done violin accompaniment in the past and that's gone well, but it's not suited to be a primary instrument in a traditional arrangement, which is mostly what I was thinking of at the time. I mostly suck at the violin and guitar separately now, so it worked out.
Alison, have you ever heard Final Fantasy? It's the project of Owen Pallet, a Canadian violinist (I believe he was actually involved with Arcade Fire at one point). He doesn't rock by any means, but it is just him and his violin, and it's pretty great. Kind of what Jack Black referred to in High Fidelity as "sad bastard music" , but I like it. You being a former violinist, I thought you might appreciate a pop musician who's doing it up with a violin.
[youtube]Y8PZ8-cpWc4[/youtube]
Here's how he does things live:
[youtube]
pKLcmS02EQI[/youtube]
That's really good- thanks! I'm definitely going to check out all the stuff people listed that I'm not already familiar with.
(To clarify, I'm still currently a violinist, just a rather mediocre one. And I'm not at all opposed to the general idea of using violins in non-classical music- just in the context I had in mind when I was 13 and had made it about as far into non-mainstream music as NOFX [and to this day I'm not sure how I got there in the first place, but I'm glad I did since it all progressed from there, not that anyone needed the whole backstory on that].)
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Doesn't Andrew Bird play violin? As soon as people started mentioning violin in rock music, I immediately thought of Sergey Ryabtsev -- the old Russian violinist who looks out of place in Gogol Bordello.
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If I can find some Ska, Rocksteady, or Reggae with some violins, will you people stop talking about band that kinda stink?
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There are some good modern, American ska bands that play a style pretty similar to the original Jamaican sound.
I would put The Slackers from New York at the top of that list. They've been touring and recording since the mid-90s, and have put out some great music. Some other favorites are Chris Murray, the Pietasters, Ryan Scroggins and the Trenchtown Texans, the Stingers, and Westbound Train. Hepcat were also great, but they broke up 5 or 6 years ago.
Another band I really like, the Aggrolites, are actually a reggae band, but they play to the same crowd and often get grouped in with American ska.
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More violin madness:
Mark Wood gets an A for effort in my book:
(http://www.kickthebobo.com/3475038737204683.JPG)
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ktZaFgQ4YIs[/youtube]
Miri Ben-Ari "The Hip-Hop Violinist"
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_CCkagE15sk[/youtube]
I wish I had went to this high school.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D5zVB3a8c8I[/youtube]