FOT Forum
FOT Community => General Discussion => Topic started by: Matthew_S on August 02, 2008, 04:02:03 PM
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I'm curious as to what the FOTs think. Explains this thread:
http://www.friendsoftom.com/forum/index.php/topic,3573.0.html
In this case, let's expand the FOT canon, let's gauge the collective cultural consciousness of the Friends and fans of Tom. So, please vote your own thoughts (and explain below), not your take of Tom's view.
First candidate -- Freaks and Geeks.
And if you're curious, in this case I think canon means: a list of artistic works considered to be permanently established as being of the highest quality.
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For a variety of reasons, this is my all time favorite show. It aired right as I was starting high school and was totally dead on for me. I was more or less Seth Rogan's Ken, minus the girlfriend born with both parts. I've watched the series all the way through at least 5 times and it never fails to hold up every time. It struck a great balance between comedy and drama and I would definitely deem it canon worthy.
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So far, this is a landslide in favor. Any dissenters care to voice their concerns?
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This is one of the many things I've never seen and barely know anything about. I'm worried if I go to watch it now it won't live up to its hype.
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This is one of the many things I've never seen and barely know anything about. I'm worried if I go to watch it now it won't live up to its hype.
Don't people often say something similar about the Wire? Yes, I personally think of Freaks and Geeks that favorably.
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Well, I'll check it out. I don't exactly want to relive high school, but it comes recommended. Generally people that are a few years younger than I am really seem to be into it. You crazy kids.
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It's a good show, but in my opinion it's kind of obsolete now that we have features like Superbad, Knocked Up, etc...these carry the same themes as F&G but take 'em farther, and funnier. F&G is still worth watching, but Apatow and his crew went on to greater heights.
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I feel the complete opposite. I think F & G is more authentic, or real, or whatever word you want to use, than anything Apatow's been involved in since. With better characters. And funnier, too.
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I feel the complete opposite. I think F & G is more authentic, or real, or whatever word you want to use, than anything Apatow's been involved in since. With better characters. And funnier, too.
Exactly, because for the most part it doesn't rely on cheap gags or resort to filthy humor. But really, shouldn't Paul Feig be getting all the credit for this one? Especially if you've read any of his books, a lot of the Sam related stories seem to have come from his experiences.
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Yeah, I know that Paul Feig was more of the voice behind F&G, but it's still hard for me not to view it as "phase one" of the Apatow ascension.
I don't know, my feelings on this have faded somewhat, but I remember walking out of Superbad and thinking "wow, people who pine over the cancellation of Freaks & Geeks really have nothing to be sad about anymore!"
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but it's still hard for me not to view it as "phase one" of the Apatow ascension.
Nope, you're thinking of Heavyweights, which I just watched today on the Hallmark channel. DON'T JUDGE!
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I have never seen Freaks and Geeks.
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Freaks and Geeks was a great series.
The Bill Haverchuck character is my favorite. I really dug the younger brother and his friends more then the stuff about Lindsey and the older kids.
Its kind of cool that they knew it wasn't going to be renewed so they made a semi-logical ending to the series.
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The Bill Haverchuck character is my favorite.
Agreed. Totally. Especially when dressed as the Bionic Woman.
Finally got around to watching the show about a month ago. I remember seeing commercials for it when it was on TV and thinking it looked good but I had night classes at the time so I never got to watch it. I was surprised by how much I liked it because I'm not a huge fan of the Apatow stuff I've seen.
Yeah. Thumbs up.
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Yesno, this show is definitely very easy to get into and it only ran for like 16 episodes. Get the first disc off Netflix and give it a try, it's great.
I too feel like everybody calls it Apatow's show but it really was Feig's.
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I am just getting into summer heights high, which is an amazing show. So I am now more open to high school shows. I shall netflix f/g when I return to CO. Thx for the tips.
Ps: summer heights high is a solid tier 2 show.
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I feel the complete opposite. I think F & G is more authentic, or real, or whatever word you want to use, than anything Apatow's been involved in since. With better characters. And funnier, too.
I agree with Jouster.
Newer Apatow stuff is like icing with no cake.
Also, pie is better.
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I've never seen Freaks and Geeks either, though I thought Superbad felt really authentic, especially being in more or less the same situation.
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Superbad was definitely the closest and apatow production that I've seen has come to replicating the high school authenticity of Freaks and Geeks. Seriously, Freaks and Geeks has moments in it that I think articulate experiences that I have never seen in any other instance of pop culture. The failed teenage sex scene in Superbad was similar to that.
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Superbad was definitely the closest and apatow production that I've seen has come to replicating the high school authenticity of Freaks and Geeks. Seriously, Freaks and Geeks has moments in it that I think articulate experiences that I have never seen in any other instance of pop culture. The failed teenage sex scene in Superbad was similar to that.
The one scene in particular that sticks with me from F&G (and I've even see Apatow himself point it out as the first time he felt he really got it right) is the one where Bill Haverchuck is sitting in his living room eating grilled cheese and watching TV while I'm One by The Who is playing. He's laughing hysterically at the TV (Garry Shandling is doing standup on some talk show) but there's something incredibly sad about the whole thing.
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I have never seen Freaks and Geeks.
Me too.
Why aren't we talking about ground-breaking shows, like The Paul Lynde Show, or The Mothers-in-Law, or Candid Camera?
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The one scene in particular that sticks with me from F&G (and I've even see Apatow himself point it out as the first time he felt he really got it right) is the one where Bill Haverchuck is sitting in his living room eating grilled cheese and watching TV while I'm One by The Who is playing. He's laughing hysterically at the TV (Garry Shandling is doing standup on some talk show) but there's something incredibly sad about the whole thing.
The episode where Bill's mother starts dating the gym coach is amazing.
It almost reduced me to tears, and I am a robot.
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The one scene in particular that sticks with me from F&G (and I've even see Apatow himself point it out as the first time he felt he really got it right) is the one where Bill Haverchuck is sitting in his living room eating grilled cheese and watching TV while I'm One by The Who is playing. He's laughing hysterically at the TV (Garry Shandling is doing standup on some talk show) but there's something incredibly sad about the whole thing.
The episode where Bill's mother starts dating the gym coach is amazing.
It almost reduced me to tears, and I am a robot.
This glorious episode has an amazing ending: Haverchuck finally decides to give Coach Fredericks a chance by providing a quick summary of what is happening on Dallas.
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I love Freaks & Geeks more than any other television show (even The Wire). Having read Paul Feig's books, it feels like Feig's work much more than Apatows.
I find it strange how much Apatow is credited for everything in any project he is involved in. Other than Anchorman, everything that he produces, but isn't the primary writer or director he seems to get authorial credit on. Granted, I think Apatow is great and has overtaken Bob Odenkirk as the best producer/comedy-guru around.
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I love Freaks & Geeks more than any other television show (even The Wire). Having read Paul Feig's books, it feels like Feig's work much more than Apatows.
I find it strange how much Apatow is credited for everything in any project he is involved in. Other than Anchorman, everything that he produces, but isn't the primary writer or director he seems to get authorial credit on. Granted, I think Apatow is great and has overtaken Bob Odenkirk as the best producer/comedy-guru around.
This reminds me of this:
http://www.harpers.org/archive/2002/03/0079095
Don't have a cow, man
By Judd Apatow and Mark Brazill
From an exchange of emails in fall 2001 between Judd Apatow, the creator of the sitcoms Freaks and Geeks and Undeclared and a successful writer of Hollywood screenplays, and Mark Brazill, the creator of That '70s Show. Topher Grace is one of the stars of That '70s Show.
Mark,
I am writing you because I left a message but did not hear back. I understand that you were upset about me not calling you to ask if Topher could do our show. Since Fox executives were talking to Topher about it, I thought it was cool with you. Also, since I hadn't written it yet, I wasn't at the point of asking if it was possible to have him do it. I would have called your show then. I didn't realize it would create a problem. I never wished to offend you. If there is some protocol for people on Fox doing guest shots on other Fox shows, I didn't know what it was. Regardless, I'm sorry that this resulted in such a mess. If you are mad at me about this or something else from our past, please tell me. I only remember us having fun in the early nineties and it troubles me that it seems like you have a beef with me.
Best regards,
Judd Apatow
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Judd,
Yeah, we were friends in the early nineties. And if you don't recall what happened, I'll remind you. I had a pilot at MTV called "Yard Dogs" about a rock band living in Hollywood. I told you about it and you proceeded to completely rip it off, storyline and all, for the Ben Stiller show. You called it "Grungies." MTV and UTA [United Talent Agency] were working on an overall deal (MTV's idea) with me, based on that pilot. When it turned up on your show everything went away overnight. I had just had my son Jack and I had no job, no money, nothing. There's a saying, "I forgive but I don't forget. And I don't forgive." So, now you know. Although I kind of think that you already did.
Mark
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Mark,
I truly don't remember anything you are talking about. Jeff Kahn wrote "The Grungies" sketch, a parody where we did Seattle bands as The Monkees. I don't remember you ever calling me after that saying you were mad. Ben and I would get fifty sketches a week from the writers and then we'd pick the ones that we thought were funny. I never connected the two. Even now they don't seem similar. Ours was a goofy over-the-top parody, not a situation comedy about musicians in L.A. Nobody watched our show so I don't see how that could be the reason your pilot died. I am sorry you are upset. I am not a thief of ideas. I'm sorry you believe differently.
Judd Apatow
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Judd,
The show I wrote was also over-the-top and it let down the fourth wall. Since it's registered at the WGA [Writers Guild of America], you could compare the two. And as an Exec Producer, we both know you have input into every sketch. As for no one seeing the show, everyone knows everything in Hollywood. There are no secrets. Personally, I feel you've made a career out of being a sycophant to Carrey or Shandling or Roseanne, and when you weren't kissing ass you were stealing from lesser-known comics or leeching off other people's ideas ("Celtic Pride," "Cable Guy"). I noticed how outraged you were to not get a writing credit on "Cable Guy" until it came out and was panned. You dropped that cause like the showbiz weasel you are. You may not think you're a thief, but most comics know otherwise. And again, you know that too. Have you ever read "What Makes Sammy Run"? I think you'd like it. Get cancer.
Love,
Mark
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Mark,
Come on, we all wrote for comics at the beginning of our careers. I wrote for Roseanne, you wrote for Dennis Miller. If that makes me a sycophant, then I guess I am. And so are the writers for "Caesar's Hour." I dropped my "Cable Guy" lawsuit not because the film got bad reviews but because I spent eighty grand on it and my lawyer told me I was going to lose. You would be upset if you rewrote the vast majority of a script and received no credit. I wish you had called me about this years ago. I'm sure we could have worked it out. Try not to be so angry. Not everyone is as bad as you think. You should call Jeff Kahn and ask him how that sketch originated. If it turned out that I didn't steal your idea would you still want me to get cancer? I swear to God that I didn't know you were mad about this. Until six weeks ago I was still referring to you as an old friend. Maybe one day I'll be able to say that again.
Judd Apatow
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Mark,
It's come to my attention that you are upset with Judd Apatow about the sketch "The Grungies." I completely understand why you would have been pissed off about seeing something similar to what you were working on at the time. However, the idea for "The Grungies" and all the initial writing and rewriting came from me. I also cast it, acted in it, and edited it. I was and still am influenced by pop music, and I thought it would be funny to satirize the seriousness of the Seattle grunge music scene with the ridiculous superficiality of "The Monkees" 1960s show. I hope that this clears up any misunderstanding. By the way, I am a huge fan of "That '70s Show." Congratulations on its well-deserved success. I also think it's cool you set it in Wisconsin. I went to the University of Wisconsin at Madison and loved it. If you have any other questions don't hesitate to email me.
Jeff Kahn
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Mark,
I have no interest in talking with you on the phone anymore. I know you are very successful and think that gives you the right to judge people and berate them regardless of the facts, but I have had enough of you for one day. I know it's hard to believe that your rock band TV idea, which every writer in this town has thought of at one point, was not on my mind half a year after you told it to me. Yes, you thought of breaking the fourth wall. Groucho and George Burns stole it from you. Why don't you sue the guys who have that new show "How to Be a Rock Star" on the WB? I must have told them your idea. Nobody has ever goofed on rock bands, not "Spinal Tap" or The Rutles or 800 "Saturday Night Live" sketches. I should have told everyone on the show, no rock band sketches, that's Brazill's area. So hold on to your hate and rage, even though it makes no sense. I'll go back to my life of thievery and leeching. As for the cancer, I'll wait till you get it and then steal it from you. By the way, that joke was one of my writers', Rodney Rothman (see, I credited him). See, I have no original thoughts. Sorry I bothered to figure this out.
Judd
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Judd,
How appropriate that you had to use someone else's joke to take a swipe at me. I told you my idea. You did it two weeks later, VERBATIM. Spew revisionist shit all you want. Everyone knows you're a hack. Also, everyone knows how you fucked over Paul Feig on the new show. All your press mentions "your" brilliant "Freaks and Geeks," as if Feig didn't even do the series. It must have killed you when the true genius behind it got nominated for an Emmy. Is your wife still livid about someone in the neighborhood building a house just like hers? Tell her I know how she feels. The reason I called was to tell you to piss off. We'll never be "friends," regardless of the pussy whining from your last email. I respect you zero. See ya at the upfronts, bitch! Well . . . unless you get canceled before that. Until then, die in a fiery accident and taste your own blood. (Is that too angry?)
Love,
Brazill
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Mark,
I hope your anger is a joke, because if it isn't . . . wow. Here's a line by line reply. I have starred (*) the replies if you are confused by my format.
>How appropriate that you had to use someone else's joke to take a swipe at me.
***That was the joke. How interesting that you couldn't understand that. You would think someone with the lineage of "Yard Dogs" would have the intellectual acumen to pick up on that. I feel for the writers that have to pitch to you. Never doubt how much they hate you.
>I told you my idea. You did it two weeks later, VERBATIM. Spew revisionist shit all you want.
***How could I hear your idea, steal it, and then have it air two weeks later? It was a filmed sketch show. Sketches were written months before they aired. They were filmed six weeks before they aired. I thought you were a producer. Shouldn't you understand how these shows are made? Do you start writing episodes two weeks before they air? Maybe you stole "Yard Dogs" from me.
>Everyone knows you're a hack.
***That's why I kiss the ass. Let me know who thinks I am a hack so I can kiss their ass as well. I also suck dick lately. That's how I got my Dreamworks deal.
>It must have killed you when the true genius behind it got nominated for an Emmy.
***I'm sure it's hard for you to believe, but I do not control the national media. That is only true in your paranoid mind. If I create a show they often mention the last show. When they write about "That '80s Show" I am sure they won't ever mention "That '70s Show." I wrote an entire article in the "L.A. Times," a cover story in the calendar, that credited Paul for his work. He went from a struggling actor to an established writer/producer over the course of a year. He is still my friend and I am very happy that he was nominated for two Emmys. He deserved it. I wasn't upset about his Emmy nominations, I already have enough. The certificates are so big you can only hang so many before it starts looking tacky.
>Is your wife still livid about someone in the neighborhood building a house just like hers?
***Yes.
>Tell her I know how she feels.
***I'm on it.
>The reason I called was to tell you to piss off. We'll never be "friends," regardless of the pussy whining from your last email.
***The funniest part of these emails is how bad your sense of humor is. You neither get nor can tell a joke. After you said "get cancer" did you really think I was looking to heal our relationship? Usually the cancer insult is a closer. I'm sure everyone who has suffered with that appreciates your sharp wit.
>I respect you zero.
***Oh no.
>See ya at the upfronts, bitch! Well . . . unless you get canceled before that.
***If you think cancellation hurts me at this point, you haven't been following my career as closely as I thought. I guess you are too busy tracking my real estate problems.
>Until then, die in a fiery accident and taste your own blood.
***That's a Sam Kinison line, you stupid fuck!!!! Hypocrite!!!! J'accuse!!!!
>(Is that too angry?)
>Love, Brazill
***Mark, I have enjoyed this. It's good to see the tragedies of the past few months haven't watered down your passion. I guess if Mark Brazill doesn't go insane over stuff that makes no sense, the terrorists win. Good luck with "That '80s Show." And I look forward to "That '90s Show."
Judd Apatow
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Given the landslide nature of the results, I guess next nominee should be a tad less obvious. Feel free to send me suggestions.
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If something is to be considered FOT Canon, wouldn't it naturally be a landslide result? I don't think Freaks and Geeks is too obvious a choice. Besides, so many FOTs have mentioned how they haven't even seen it.
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If something is to be considered FOT Canon, wouldn't it naturally be a landslide result? I don't think Freaks and Geeks is too obvious a choice. Besides, so many FOTs have mentioned how they haven't even seen it.
If they saw it, though, they would probably love it.
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If something is to be considered FOT Canon, wouldn't it naturally be a landslide result? I don't think Freaks and Geeks is too obvious a choice. Besides, so many FOTs have mentioned how they haven't even seen it.
If they saw it, though, they would probably love it.
exactly.
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If something is to be considered FOT Canon, wouldn't it naturally be a landslide result? I don't think Freaks and Geeks is too obvious a choice. Besides, so many FOTs have mentioned how they haven't even seen it.
If they saw it, though, they would probably love it.
I think anyone who sees it who is under the age of 40 (not saying older people won't like it) would love it. I don't think there has ever been a show as perfect as Freaks and Geeks. In one season they were able to create meaningful characters and all of them are trying to find a way to find themselves and each of them have a different way of doing that. It's really amazing. The only show I've seen that comes close to capturing that is Friday Night Lights and that doesn't really come that close. It's still good but it's no F+G.
Speaking of Friday Night Lights: Did it get cancelled?
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I think anyone who sees it who is under the age of 40 (not saying older people won't like it) would love it. I don't think there has ever been a show as perfect as Freaks and Geeks. In one season they were able to create meaningful characters and all of them are trying to find a way to find themselves and each of them have a different way of doing that. It's really amazing. The only show I've seen that comes close to capturing that is Friday Night Lights and that doesn't really come that close. It's still good but it's no F+G.
Speaking of Friday Night Lights: Did it get cancelled?
FNL's 3rd season premieres in the fall on DirectTV and then I think NBC will re-air those episodes at the beginning of 2009 (at least I'm pretty sure that's what I've read from several different sources.
My girlfriend watched F&G for the first time last summer and we had a discussion about whether or not a second season would've been a good thing for the show. I go back and forth on it a lot but I've come to the conclusion that while I would've loved more episodes, it's just perfect the way it is.
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I think anyone who sees it who is under the age of 40 (not saying older people won't like it) would love it. I don't think there has ever been a show as perfect as Freaks and Geeks. In one season they were able to create meaningful characters and all of them are trying to find a way to find themselves and each of them have a different way of doing that. It's really amazing. The only show I've seen that comes close to capturing that is Friday Night Lights and that doesn't really come that close. It's still good but it's no F+G.
Speaking of Friday Night Lights: Did it get cancelled?
FNL's 3rd season premieres in the fall on DirectTV and then I think NBC will re-air those episodes at the beginning of 2009 (at least I'm pretty sure that's what I've read from several different sources.
My girlfriend watched F&G for the first time last summer and we had a discussion about whether or not a second season would've been a good thing for the show. I go back and forth on it a lot but I've come to the conclusion that while I would've loved more episodes, it's just perfect the way it is.
Agreed. This is also how I feel about Arrested Development. So many people are still just getting into that show through DVD now and they all tell me "It sucks that it got canceled. They should bring it back!" while I feel like it ended perfectly and wouldn't help to reopen with a movie.
Matthew_S, thanks for posting that Apatow/Brazill feud. It's impossible to know who to believe but it was still a good read.
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I declare Freaks and Geeks ---
INDUCTED!
Please send nominee suggestions to me. I'll start a new thread in the next few days.
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I think anyone who sees it who is under the age of 40 (not saying older people won't like it) would love it. I don't think there has ever been a show as perfect as Freaks and Geeks. In one season they were able to create meaningful characters and all of them are trying to find a way to find themselves and each of them have a different way of doing that. It's really amazing. The only show I've seen that comes close to capturing that is Friday Night Lights and that doesn't really come that close. It's still good but it's no F+G.
Speaking of Friday Night Lights: Did it get cancelled?
FNL's 3rd season premieres in the fall on DirectTV and then I think NBC will re-air those episodes at the beginning of 2009 (at least I'm pretty sure that's what I've read from several different sources.
My girlfriend watched F&G for the first time last summer and we had a discussion about whether or not a second season would've been a good thing for the show. I go back and forth on it a lot but I've come to the conclusion that while I would've loved more episodes, it's just perfect the way it is.
Agreed. This is also how I feel about Arrested Development. So many people are still just getting into that show through DVD now and they all tell me "It sucks that it got canceled. They should bring it back!" while I feel like it ended perfectly and wouldn't help to reopen with a movie.
Matthew_S, thanks for posting that Apatow/Brazill feud. It's impossible to know who to believe but it was still a good read.
the reason it ended the way it did was because they knew they were getting cancelled. i disagree with how it ended and im looking forward to the movie. it should have never been cancelled.