FOT Forum
FOT Community => General Discussion => Topic started by: placeholder on August 16, 2011, 04:21:05 PM
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The Visitors is my favorite ABBA rec by some distance, but I barely hear anyone talk about it.
I imagine there are a bunch of ABBA fans among you beautiful folks, so I was wondering what you thought of it.
I think Super Trouper is probably the second best, but I love all of 'em!
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"Like an Angel Passing through My Room" is definitely one of their best songs.
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I am ashamed to say it's the one I do not own. I will have to remedy that soon so I can weigh in.
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They definitely got better at album-making the longer they went on, but my fave ABBA record will always be WATERLOO. I guess I just prefer upbeat-and-poppy ABBA to atmospheric-and-"mature" ABBA.
My ranking goes like this:
1. WATERLOO
2. ABBA (THE ALBUM)
3. VOULEZ-VOUS/SUPER TROUPER/THE VISITORS
4. ABBA/ARRIVAL
5. RING RING
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The Visitors is great, but my favorite will always be The Album, mostly for "Eagle" and "I'm a Marionette."
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Sorry about this. Tom Waits is to Tom., what Abba is to me. Agree to disagree, that's why they have horseraces and all that...
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Alas, I too do not understand revisionist neo-Abbaism. Everyone with any taste knew they sucked at the time. What changed?
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I think The Album is great, the rest of the albums are good to mediocre. Arrival probably is my least favorite.
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Alas, I too do not understand revisionist neo-Abbaism. Everyone with any taste knew they sucked at the time. What changed?
I understand people being completely put off by ABBA.
I was a little kid when they split up, so I never heard them in their original cultural context. I actually don't remember hearing them at all until I was a teenager and VH1 would sometimes play "S.O.S." or "Dancing Queen" on 8-Track Flashback. I think I sort-of heard them in a vacuum. I also thought they were cornball when I first heard them, but their hits grew on me a lot and I noticed that other musicians I liked (Chris Carter and Elvis Costello come to mind) praised them fairly often, so I felt compelled figure out if there was something I didn't get. There was! After I found a cheapo used copy of Arrival, I was hooked. Started buying the rest of their stuff. Those guys were great songwriters!
I have to imagine that I might feel differently if I'd been around when their music was ubiquitous, although I'm certain I'd have still gotten into The Visitors if I'd given it a chance. Kinda the same way I love Kiss, but can't imagine I'd have been into them if I'd been around during their commercial peak.
OK! Enough ABBA talk from me!
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Speaking of Abba I have to say that I've been hooked hard lately on 'Knowing Me, Knowing You'. The composition and vocals are just so lush and perfect. Plus the lyrics are so sad and depressing which I like. That's weird that that's a check in the plus corner for me, isn't it?
Where do you guys stand on the movie version of MAMMA MIA? I haven't seen it. Is it worth a damn?
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Alas, I too do not understand revisionist neo-Abbaism. Everyone with any taste knew they sucked at the time. What changed?
Who is 'everyone'? The dummies who wrote for Rolling Stone who put down ABBA (and Led Zep and Black Sabbath and more) in favor of the J. Geils Band and Jackson Browne?
The world bought ABBA records. They never stopped buying them. And with some distance from the meatheaded 'death to disco' shit that plagued the late 70s, people who were trained by guys like Scott Muni to hate anything with a beat and without a guitar solo were able to safely admit that they did indeed like ABBA.
They're perfectly crafted pop songs. They're loaded with emotion and drama - something about 'the English as a second language' situation the band faced forced them to write lyrics that are amazingly universal. They are as catchy as anything ever. They're immaculately produced and stunning in their pop range.
I love ABBA without one shred of irony or sarcasm!
Tom.
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Very similar to my love for ELO, even though English was ostensibly Lynne's first language.
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Very similar to my love for ELO, even though English was ostensibly Lynne's first language.
I thought he only spoke Prog.
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Well, my experience was a little different--I didn't grow up in the NY area, have never heard Scott Muni, and recognized that "Disco sucks" bit for the racist claptrap it was from the start. But no one will ever convince me that ABBA were disliked because they sounded too Negroid.
"Perfectly crafted"? I dunno--compared to what? "Be My Baby"? "Watching the Detectives"? What's an example of an imperfectly crafted song, as opposed to one that just doesn't work for you? I don't even find the songs that catchy--I owned a copy of Gold for a few years, trying ineffectually to hear what Elvis Costello heard in it, and apart from "Dancing Queen" I couldn't hum any of them for you.
But more than anything, what I dislike is the perfectly vacuous singing, which belongs to the sugary-earnest tradition of Rodgers & Hammerstein musicals, advertising jingles, and Karen Carpenter up through Celine Dion and Susan Whatsername, you know, that dowdy English lady from the TV show. If you can listen to the vocal on "Chiquitita" without throwing up in your mouth, you're a stronger man than me. Yeah, the songs are loaded with emotion alright--all of it completely unconvincing.
Still, love for anything without one shred of irony or sarcasm is a good thing.
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Very similar to my love for ELO, even though English was ostensibly Lynne's first language.
I thought he only spoke Prog.
You consider ELO prog?
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What's an example of an imperfectly crafted song, as opposed to one that just doesn't work for you?
Royal Trux, the Frogs, A WIZARD/A TRUE STAR, Sebadoh/Sentridoh, any of of Robert Pollard's 1000-plus too short classics, JESUS URGE SUPERSTAR, any Volcano Suns, DUSK AT CUBIST CASTLE, anything on SMILEY SMILE that's not "Good Vibrations or "Heroes and Villains", plenty of Television Personalities and late 70s/early 80s UK DIY, any Strapping Fieldhands, SORRY MA..., most Oblivians songs written by Greg, the Swell Maps.
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Hmmm...thanks. Turns out I prefer imperfectly crafted songs. More human, maybe.
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Very similar to my love for ELO, even though English was ostensibly Lynne's first language.
I thought he only spoke Prog.
You consider ELO prog?
I'm sorry, I thought we were talking about BTO.
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I love ABBA without one shred of irony or sarcasm!
I got really into them in high school and so many of my friends refused to believe that I genuinely liked the music. I find that I still encounter people who think it's some kind of put on, and for all the reasons Tom outlined in his post, I just don't get it.
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The finest our nation has to offer.
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I love ABBA without one shred of irony or sarcasm!
I got really into them in high school and so many of my friends refused to believe that I genuinely liked the music. I find that I still encounter people who think it's some kind of put on, and for all the reasons Tom outlined in his post, I just don't get it.
I guess there's a belief amongst some music listeners that poppy, sugary music-the kind which ABBA used to make-somehow lacks artistic merit. This is probably why they don't get the respect they deserve.
As far as I'm concerned, I like ABBA for the same reason I like Steely Dan...because they made catchy, well-written, well-composed songs. And I say without a trace of irony or insincerity. For me, ABBA holds up MUCH better than say, Joy Division.
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But ya know, it's possible to like catchy, well-written, well-composed songs and still not think ABBA made them.
Tom says their lyrics achieved "universality," but is something like this (picked basically at random) universal or is it just kind of conventional and bland?:
If you change your mind, I'm the first in line
Honey I'm still free take a chance on me
If you need me, let me know, gonna be around
If you've got no place to go, if you're feeling down
If you're all alone when the pretty birds have flown
Honey I'm still free take a chance on me
Gonna do my very best and it ain't no lie
If you put me to the test, if you let me try
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But ya know, it's possible to like catchy, well-written, well-composed songs and still not think ABBA made them.
Tom says their lyrics achieved "universality," but is something like this (picked basically at random) universal or is it just kind of conventional and bland?:
If you change your mind, I'm the first in line
Honey I'm still free take a chance on me
If you need me, let me know, gonna be around
If you've got no place to go, if you're feeling down
If you're all alone when the pretty birds have flown
Honey I'm still free take a chance on me
Gonna do my very best and it ain't no lie
If you put me to the test, if you let me try
I don't begrudge you for disliking ABBA. You're entitled to your opinion. I'm not trying to convince you to like them. I'm just giving you the reasons why I happen to enjoy their music.
WRT to your second point: If I want lyrical profundity, then I'll listen to Neil Young or Leonard Cohen. ABBA's appeal, at least for me, has little to do with the lyrical content of their songs. It's about the music itself. The melodies, the vocal arrangements, the instrumentation...those are the things that made ABBA great, IMO.
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I don't begrudge you for disliking ABBA.
I know you don't. I was just pushing back against the idea that disliking ABBA must equate to a condescending attitude toward poppiness (it's true that sugariness I can do without.)
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And as for the lyrics: I know the old saw about critics (of which I am not one) over-valuing lyrics, but it seems to me that if you praise a song for being well-written, well, lyrics are part of songwriting and you should be able to say something good about them. Tom tried, with "universal," but I don't see that it stands up--or, rather, that it means anything beyond "supremely unchallenging."
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And as for the lyrics: I know the old saw about critics (of which I am not one) over-valuing lyrics, but it seems to me that if you praise a song for being well-written, well, lyrics are part of songwriting and you should be able to say something good about them. Tom tried, with "universal," but I don't see that it stands up--or, rather, that it means anything beyond "supremely unchallenging."
What's the endgame here? To try to break down why you think ABBA sucks so that you can spoil the party for others? You hate them - totally your choice, totally your right. But give it a rest - if it's not working for you, it's not working for you. Listen to something else you love and let this one go.
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Yeah, I have no problem with people hating ABBA, Michael Jackson, Lady Gaga, The Archies, The Monkees, or any other pop music I love (for that matter, I don't care if people hate Captain Beefheart, Tom Waits, or Fluxus, or Minor Threat, or anything else I like). What I don't like is (1) the insistence that there is some objective aesthetic measure that makes one band suck and another one good, and the absolute insistence on this, as if we're living in 18th century Europe or something, and (2) Rockism (a term I've seen used by DJ/Rupture and Simon Reynolds, among others), which is a kind of sexism/racism/homophobia/elitism, even though it's commonly embodied by liberal music writers who claim to be none of the above. A close cousin to both the pretentious cluelessness of 70s RS and the meathead "disco sucks" stuff that Tom mentioned above, it exclusively takes rock seriously (especially pseudo-intellectual stuff like Roger Waters Pink Floyd or Jackson Browne, or even smart pop like Elvis Costello*). The work that gets dismissed as fluff just happens to be for ethnic minorities, women, gays, or vacationing proles who just don't want to think about their pop.
I'm not accusing anyone who doesn't like ABBA of being sexist or whatever, but taste is as much socially defined as it is aesthetically defined, and pop music criticism has been dominated by straight white dudes straining to get it taken seriously as an art form right from the start. Of course it reflects their particular worldview.
Suggestions for further reading: http://www.scharplingandwurster.com/?p=24 (http://www.scharplingandwurster.com/?p=24) (key quote: "Foreigner –“Feels Like the First Time”: Now THIS is what the new rock and roll should sound like. The guitar is loud and dirty but also tasteful. And this guy can sing. Hey, Clash…school’s in session…and Foreigner is your teacher!"). Also Carl Wilson's 33 1/3 book on Celine Dion (http://"http://www.amazon.com/Celine-Dions-Lets-Talk-About/dp/082642788X"). And the Baffler article about when Prince got violently heckled opening up for the Rolling Stones, which I can't find online but which is great. Also see Masterofsparks' and Buffcoat's defenses of Kiss, Bob Seger, and ZZ Top on these boards, all of which I found convincing and -- after listening to the music again -- utterly correct. I also think EFD's show is (among other things) a compendium of fantastic 80s music I had thoughtlessly dismissed -- who would have thunk that Jefferson Starship's "Jane" was such a great tune? The list goes on and on.
Finally, since when is anyone judging rock/pop based on lyrics? For every Dylan, Pollard, or Jay-Z there's a dozen Led Zeppelins or Rolling Stoneses or Ramoneses. Or there's all of heavy metal, which (in my opinion) is at its best when it's stupid and which gets more off-putting the more intelligent the lyrics and musicianship get. Lyrics are an important part of songwriting, but they're not the only part.
*I like Elvis Costello and have affection for Roger Waters even though he sometimes makes me embarrassed for both him and my 16-year-old self. And I acknowledge that it's all a mug's game; dismissing mid-70s AOR as bloated white guy rock is no more intellectually valid than dismissing ABBA as fluff. But there you go.
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Um, Tom told me to put a sock in it and I will, but this is apparently directed straight at me and so I will respond:
Finally, since when is anyone judging rock/pop based on lyrics?. . . Lyrics are an important part of songwriting, but they're not the only part.
What part of the following quote by me seems to imply that lyrics are the "only" part?:
it seems to me that if you praise a song for being well-written, well, lyrics are part of songwriting and you should be able to say something good about them.
...and in fact, if challenged to I could say plenty of good things about the lyrics of the Ramones and Rolling Stones. In the present context, ABBA's lyrics were brought up by Tom, who praised them, and I disagreed that they deserved such praise. That's not judging based solely on lyrics.
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I get the feeling cavorting with nudists is an unhappy person. I also have no doubt that he is formulating his argument about why it's wrong for me to hold this opinion.
Let it go, dude. Like what you like, and allow others the same privilege. I would sincerely be interested in what you like, and why you recommend it.
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Unnecessary post, dfk. I announced my intention to hang it up as Tom asked, and will do so unless I keep getting directly addressed. Nothing in my last post continues to beat the anti-ABBA drum, it merely objects to being misrepresented.
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What I read was "And I will, BUT". And then more complaining.
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Guys, guys! ABBA was meant to bring us together, not tear us apart!
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Everybody should just like what they like. I have most definitely done my share of goofing on stuff I didn't like, so I don't have any leg to stand on to say who can or can't criticize stuff. But I also feel it's better to focus on what you like than to get too twisted about what you can't stand. That's all.
Tom.
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Whoa. I didn't mean for the first thread I started here to be a contentious one!
Sorry, folks!
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Whoa. I didn't mean for the first thread I started here to be a contentious one!
Sorry, folks!
I'd say most, but not all (and that's ok), FOT like, or at least appreciate, ABBA.
I like 'em.
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The finest our nation has to offer.
Let's not write off Pippi Långstrump too quickly. Pippi Longstocking books are great.
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The finest our nation has to offer.
Don't forget Christina Lindberg!
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Listening to the French, German, English and Swedish versions of Waterloo back-to-back, I noticed that the Swedish version is either a different mix or a different recording. Much more electronic-y. Private stock reserved for the home audience.
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