FOT Forum
The Best Show on WFMU => Show Discussion => Topic started by: Flood on May 02, 2012, 10:32:36 AM
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How so?
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He labeled people on drugs "assholes in action", and he tried cannabis only a few times, but without any pleasure
One evening, Zappa managed to entice some U.S. Marines from the audience onto the stage, where they proceeded to dismember a big baby doll, having been told by Zappa to pretend that it was a "gook baby".
Others were irritated by 'his autocratic ways',[61] exemplified by Zappa's never staying at the same hotel as the band members.
Zappa vehemently denied any anti-Semitic sentiments and dismissed the ADL as a "noisemaking organization that tries to apply pressure on people in order to manufacture a stereotype image of Jews that suits their idea of a good time"
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I think he considered himself a conservative in a very broad sense (pro-capitalism, low taxes, etc.), but he indentified himself as a Democrat and vocally hated Nixon and Reagan.
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As far as I can tell, he disliked women pretty much (partial exception: "groupies," whom he found interesting to the degree that they were willing to degrade themselves).
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Less a matter of politics and more a matter of him being a straight-up creepy jerk.
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As far as I can tell, he disliked women pretty much (partial exception: "groupies," whom he found interesting to the degree that they were willing to degrade themselves).
His wife sees things differently.
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I read an interview where he self-identified as a small government small-c conservative. I have no idea where he fell on social issues.
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I read an interview where he self-identified as a small government small-c conservative. I have no idea where he fell on social issues.
He was a hardcore First Amendment guy.
Frank Zappa On Freedom Of Speech (CNN Crossfire 1986 - Pt. 1) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iid2MTSUwbw#)
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As far as I can tell, he disliked women pretty much (partial exception: "groupies," whom he found interesting to the degree that they were willing to degrade themselves).
His wife sees things differently.
Link? Speaking frankly, she wouldn't be the first showbiz widow/widower with an interest in burnishing their spouse's reputation. The portrayals of women in his recorded works make a statement of their own, which may or may not reflect the true feelings of the artiste behind closed doors (an argument for which I have not much use--cf. Clay, Andrew Dice).
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I read an interview where he self-identified as a small government small-c conservative. I have no idea where he fell on social issues.
Given the lyrical content in many of his songs, I would say that it's highly unlikely that Zappa was any kind of social conservative.
I remember reading a good chunk of his memoir at Barnes & Noble. In it, Zappa classified himself as, more or less, a libertarian. Although, I imagine he parted ways with them on drug matters.
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"Speaking frankly." Get it? Geeeht it???
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I remember reading a good chunk of his memoir at Barnes & Noble. In it, Zappa classified himself as, more or less, a libertarian. Although, I imagine he parted ways with them on drug matters.
Libertarian sounds like a fairly accurate label for him. I heard an interview with him (on Larry King maybe?) where he said that despite his own feeling about drugs, he didn't feel they should be illegal.
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"Speaking frankly." Get it? Geeeht it???
Interesting story: In the late 80's, apparently Zappa was working on a concept album about Gary The Squirrel, entitled "Big Nuts." Unfortunately, he was never able to finish it. However, if you look around on the net, you can find some outtakes.
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I heard Gary's working on a power-pop rendition of "Jazz Fart".
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Why was he so vehemently anti-music?
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Why was he so vehemently anti-music?
A very strong 13th post!
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I have the suspicion that if he'd lived, Zappa's politics wound end up overlapping at least 95% with the South Park guys.
(This is not an endorsement.)
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I always hated his anti-drug stance, since he smoked like a fish. You'd think he'd exert a bit of latitude in his thinking there.
Also, that "rock critics are people who can't write" etc etc quote of his ... whenever I see it I wanna reach for my revolver.
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Why was he so vehemently anti-music?
A very strong 13th post!
agreed!
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Rare FOT Zappa fan here. In fact, I'm listening to a bootleg from Columbus, Ohio, 9-19-78, as I type this.
I'm also one of those rare types of Zappa fans who refuses to subject others to his private and shameful obsession.
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Rare FOT Zappa fan here. In fact, I'm listening to a bootleg from Columbus, Ohio, 9-19-78, as I type this.
I'm also one of those rare types of Zappa fans who refuses to subject others to his private and shameful obsession.
Ditto. I learned my lesson in high school. I'm just now listening to Tuesday's show, and Tom has trashed Zappa and defended the Dark Shadows movie all in the first half hour. It's as if Tom is trying to upset me.
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i heart zappa. i don't care about politics.
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I'm genuinely confused as to how anybody can like that guy. Pompous, pretentious, self-infatuated, contemptuous of everything, and his "humor" is ridiculously sophomoric when not just scatological and gross.
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I'm genuinely confused as to how anybody can like that guy. Pompous, pretentious, self-infatuated, contemptuous of everything, and his "humor" is ridiculously sophomoric when not just scatological and gross.
Much of this could be said about Pete Townshend, Lou Reed, and some other rock "intellectuals" that come to mind.
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Much of this could be said about Pete Townshend, Lou Reed, and some other rock "intellectuals" that come to mind.
True, it could be said of them. But of Zappa, there's nothing else to say.
(Except that yeah, he's a very good guitarist, but so is the fusion-y yob you never heard of on the cover of this month's Guitar Player magazine)
(Full disclosure: Zappa was my hero, when I was 13.)
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True, it could be said of them. But of Zappa, there's nothing else to say.
(Except that yeah, he's a very good guitarist, but so is the fusion-y yob you never heard of on the cover of this month's Guitar Player magazine)
(Full disclosure: Zappa was my hero, when I was 13.)
If you were once a fan, why do you find it impossible to believe that people could just be fans of his music? I mean, it's fairly well known that Lou Reed is one of the least likeable humans alive, but it doesn't stop me from liking his music.
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True, it could be said of them. But of Zappa, there's nothing else to say.
(Except that yeah, he's a very good guitarist, but so is the fusion-y yob you never heard of on the cover of this month's Guitar Player magazine)
(Full disclosure: Zappa was my hero, when I was 13.)
If you were once a fan, why do you find it impossible to believe that people could just be fans of his music? I mean, it's fairly well known that Lou Reed is one of the least likeable humans alive, but it doesn't stop me from liking his music.
You hit the nail on the head. When it comes to music, I try to separate the artist from his/her art. James Brown, Miles Davis, Captain Beefheart, The Rolling Stones, these gentleman were, by many accounts, not nice people. Yet, it doesn't preclude me from enjoying their work. The music supersedes everything else.
Personally, I'm neither a fan of Zappa nor Lou Reed. Not because of their personalities, but because I don't find their musical output compelling in the least.
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Well, based on my experience I find it completely conceivable that 13-year-olds could be Zappa fans, but that's not what I was talking about.
As a 13-year old, sure I liked the music, but 13-year-olds aren't very discriminating. I liked lots of junk. What specially appealed to me then was the whole package: Zappa's snot-mustached contempt for everything filled a need for my burgeoning little rebellious brain; "subtlety" wasn't something I'd have learned to value in satire; the sexy parts obviously intrigued me; and I probably appreciated toilet humor more then than I do now.
At 13, I revered Zappa (even wrote him a fan letter) and would have hated the Velvet Underground if I'd heard them. Now the poles are reversed, a living illustration of how adults are wiser than 13-year-olds.
Would it be possible for me now as an adult to discount Zappa's personality and thematic preoccupations and just enjoy the music? Well, actually, I do still kinda like Hot Rats (too bad about that title, yuck) and "Watermelon in Easter Hay." Instrumentals, that is, and ones that groove a bit and could have been made by someone who didn't hate rock music. If I had Shut Up and Play Your Guitar, I might listen to it. But he sure doesn't make it easy to just isolate the music; even on my iPod copy of "Watermelon in Easter Hay" I had to edit out the obnoxious spoken intro. He was pretty determined to make us take the whole package, as even the ironic title of the guitar album demonstrates.
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James Brown, Miles Davis, Captain Beefheart, The Rolling Stones, these gentleman were, by many accounts, not nice people. Yet, it doesn't preclude me from enjoying their work. The music supersedes everything else.
This is true, but none of these people wrote songs about eating yellow snow or guys who save their bowel movements in jars.
It's one thing to have a bad personality and to make music; it's another to write your bad personality into your music.
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The intolerance happening in this thread is a special kind of awesome.
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I may have gone into more detail about my reasons, but I don't think I've said anything more strongly anti-Zappa than Tom has on his show, several times--in fact I've even admitted liking a tiny portion of his output. Not comparing myself to Tom, but is he "intolerant" on the subject?
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I may have gone into more detail about my reasons, but I don't think I've said anything more strongly anti-Zappa than Tom has on his show, several times--in fact I've even admitted liking a tiny portion of his output. Not comparing myself to Tom, but is he "intolerant" on the subject?
Nah, I'm not sensing any intolerance here, and your trajectory of Zappa fandom makes sense. I, too, got into Zappa at a young age, and yeah, a lot of the lyrics haven't aged that well with me, but I still love the music (well, most of it). I give Zappa a lot of credit for branching out my tastes into other genres of music. I'm pretty sure I never bought any jazz or classical albums before hearing his stuff.
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Forget Zappa. Moe Tucker, now THAT'S a conservative.
Ex Velvet Underground member Moe Tucker is a conservative (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v30CZ_g2aqQ#)
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Back in the 1990s I used to see Gail Zappa at the top of list of major Democratic funders. That's Gail, not Frank.
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Frank Zappa battled Tipper Gore and her pals over the Parental Advisory stickers thing, then Gail Zappa later became friends with Tipper Gore and Tipper played drums on one of Zappa's kids' records (
rock'n'roll!).
Zappa's pretty awesome when pontificating about First Amendment Issues, and there's some great vids of him online handing politicians' and talking heads' asses to them. I'm not a huge fan or anything, but there's a consistent theme of gradual-fascist-takeover in his work, and he even characterized the Parental Advisory flap as symptomatic of creeping fascism in America. I agree about the South Park thing, though. He doesn't seem like he would make a very coherent liberal or conservative, he's more like a "Everyone should do whatever they want and I should judge them all from my misanthropic and priveleged state of removal" kinda guy. I feel like a lot of rock dudes are like that.
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Forget Zappa. Moe Tucker, now THAT'S a conservative.
Ex Velvet Underground member Moe Tucker is a conservative (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v30CZ_g2aqQ#)
I'm not sure why Moe Tucker's conversion to conservatism bothered so many people. Regardless of what one thinks of her political beliefs, she's certainly entitled to them.
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Forget Zappa. Moe Tucker, now THAT'S a conservative.
Ex Velvet Underground member Moe Tucker is a conservative (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v30CZ_g2aqQ#)
I'm not sure why Moe Tucker's conversion to conservatism bothered so many people. Regardless of what one thinks of her political beliefs, she's certainly entitled to them.
When I heard about it, it gave me a start because VU's songs celebrate drugs and crazy sexual practices, etc. So I guess the assumption is all the band members were/are free wheelin' types, even though she didn't really write the lyrics for the songs as far as I know.
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I'm not sure why Moe Tucker's conversion to conservatism bothered so many people. Regardless of what one thinks of her political beliefs, she's certainly entitled to them.
I'm pretty sure that what bothered people was not the feeling that she wasn't entitled to them, but that "what one thinks of her political beliefs" is not so easily disregarded. She seemed like a likeable person. Signing onto a racist, quasi-fascist political movement is not what one hopes to see from someone one likes.
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I'm not sure why Moe Tucker's conversion to conservatism bothered so many people. Regardless of what one thinks of her political beliefs, she's certainly entitled to them.
I'm pretty sure that what bothered people was not the feeling that she wasn't entitled to them, but that "what one thinks of her political beliefs" is not so easily disregarded. She seemed like a likeable person. Signing onto a racist, quasi-fascist political movement is not what one hopes to see from someone one likes.
Let me first say that I'm not particularly sympathetic to the Tea Party. With that being said, Moe Tucker's seemingly sudden political about face really didn't bother me. Her political leanings and opinions honestly mean nothing to me. They certainly have no influence on my own political worldview. Would it be nice if the actors, musicians and athletes I liked all shared my personal beliefs? I suppose. But the reality is they don't. So I just have to set aside those differences and appreciate those individuals for what they are, if that makes any sense. The only exception to this rule is when the individuals in question espouse utterly reprehensible, indefensible views. AFAIK, I don't think Moe Tucker was putting forth any such opinions.
I do respect your opinion, though. It's a view that a lot of fans share. For many, choosing to associate with a group like the Tea Party is simply an unforgivable act. I understand that. I think if I were a more passionate fan of Moe Tucker and the Velvets' music, then I might feel scorned myself.
Just my two cents.
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This is all true. Zappa was my hero too when I was that age - in fact I started playing guitar because of Zappa, started composing music because of him, and eventually majored in music composition because of him (dropped out; switched to English later). I guess I've always found him to be an inspirational figure, particularly as a composer of sorta kinda expressionist/anti-modernist 20th Century classical stuff and as a guitarist. Especially as a guitarist. Without Zappa I never would have investigated free jazz, never would have gotten into Derek Bailey or Brotzmann or any of the free improvisers that I love and enjoy. When I first heard "He Used to Cut the Grass" at 12 years old I have to admit his guitar playing gave me a headache - it was so gratuitously noisy and he was playing notes that sounded wrong and it just sounded chaotic and ugly to me and I turned it off in disgust. But I came back to it, and learned the logic of what he was doing and it made me want to try being a guitarist myself. (I had the same reaction hearing Black Flag's Greg Ginn a year or two later - the solo on "Slip It In" gave me a severe headache the first time I heard it and I immediately proclaimed him the worst guitarist of all time....a few days later I came back to it, had a revelation, and IMMEDIATELY proclaimed him THE BEST.)
ANyways, this is all very long-winded but I'm trying to say that I understand where Zappa-haters get off. Even as a major, bootleg-collecting fan, I think Zappa sucks a good 60-70% of the time. A lot of his music DOES suck. Have you ever heard the song "Tinseltown Rebellion?" Ugh. Maybe the worst song ever written. The whole deal was that Zappa was, without trying to be, the ultimate contrarian: if you wanted sleaze, he gave you doo-wop; if you wanted doo-wop, he gave you noisy guitar solos; if you wanted noisy guitar solos, he gave you political harangues; if you wanted political harangues, he gave you sleaze, etc. He always operated as the ultimate Turd in the Punchbowl, so to speak. I get tired of the sleaze and the sexism and the constant jokes about S&M and gay people and the staring too hard to be politically incorrect and the arrogance. Rarely is the bootleg I listen to all the way through. I usually skip to the songs with guitar solos and the instrumentally challenging songs with interesting arrrangements.
Having said all that, I will say that the LAST thing you'll ever hear me say is "Aw, you just haven't heard the right Zappa song yet, man!" Fuck that. I KNOW Zappa is terrible and I would never try to convince anyone else to listen to him.
Much of this could be said about Pete Townshend, Lou Reed, and some other rock "intellectuals" that come to mind.
True, it could be said of them. But of Zappa, there's nothing else to say.
(Except that yeah, he's a very good guitarist, but so is the fusion-y yob you never heard of on the cover of this month's Guitar Player magazine)
(Full disclosure: Zappa was my hero, when I was 13.)
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I'm not sure why Moe Tucker's conversion to conservatism bothered so many people. Regardless of what one thinks of her political beliefs, she's certainly entitled to them.
I'm pretty sure that what bothered people was not the feeling that she wasn't entitled to them, but that "what one thinks of her political beliefs" is not so easily disregarded. She seemed like a likeable person. Signing onto a racist, quasi-fascist political movement is not what one hopes to see from someone one likes.
Let me first say that I'm not particularly sympathetic to the Tea Party. With that being said, Moe Tucker's seemingly sudden political about face really didn't bother me. Her political leanings and opinions honestly mean nothing to me. They certainly have no influence on my own political worldview. Would it be nice if the actors, musicians and athletes I liked all shared my personal beliefs? I suppose. But the reality is they don't. So I just have to set aside those differences and appreciate those individuals for what they are, if that makes any sense. The only exception to this rule is when the individuals in question espouse utterly reprehensible, indefensible views. AFAIK, I don't think Moe Tucker was putting forth any such opinions.
I do respect your opinion, though. It's a view that a lot of fans share. For many, choosing to associate with a group like the Tea Party is simply an unforgivable act. I understand that. I think if I were a more passionate fan of Moe Tucker and the Velvets' music, then I might feel scorned myself.
Just my two cents.
Not to totally derail, but here's an interview with Moe Tucker where she expands a bit on her beliefs. She's not quite the fire-spitting Tea Party lunatic that the reaction to this video would have you believe:
http://blogs.riverfronttimes.com/rftmusic/2010/10/moe_tucker_interview_2010_politics_tea_party_velvet_underground_video.php (http://blogs.riverfronttimes.com/rftmusic/2010/10/moe_tucker_interview_2010_politics_tea_party_velvet_underground_video.php)
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I may have gone into more detail about my reasons, but I don't think I've said anything more strongly anti-Zappa than Tom has on his show, several times--in fact I've even admitted liking a tiny portion of his output. Not comparing myself to Tom, but is he "intolerant" on the subject?
Maybe "intolerant" was the wrong word, but it was the first one that came to mind to describe "I cannot understand and refuse to accept an opinion different from my own." Sorry if I offended by saying "intolerant" - it wasn't my intention.
You're right, what you're doing is very similar to what Tom did on the show with one major exception - he's doing it on a comedy radio show for purposes of humor (i.e. it's his job), and you're doing it during your personal time on an internet message board. I won't speculate on your reasons.
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http://blogs.riverfronttimes.com/rftmusic/2010/10/moe_tucker_interview_2010_politics_tea_party_velvet_underground_video.php (http://blogs.riverfronttimes.com/rftmusic/2010/10/moe_tucker_interview_2010_politics_tea_party_velvet_underground_video.php)[/url]
What's this Mo Tucker quote about Bloomberg taking away salt? How's that for a derailment from this topic?
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"Snock, it's not my fault; had to eat my porkchop without no salt."
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http://blogs.riverfronttimes.com/rftmusic/2010/10/moe_tucker_interview_2010_politics_tea_party_velvet_underground_video.php (http://blogs.riverfronttimes.com/rftmusic/2010/10/moe_tucker_interview_2010_politics_tea_party_velvet_underground_video.php)[/url]
What's this Mo Tucker quote about Bloomberg taking away salt? How's that for a derailment from this topic?
I will remind sensible people everywhere that this is NOT an actual political argument:
"I'm against a President dismissing any and all who dare to disagree"
Because much of the political sphere will tell you that it is. It's important that we remember that it is not.
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She actually sounds a lot like an archetypal Teabagger there: some legitimate beefs mixed into an incoherent stew of untruths, misunderstood facts, internal contradictions, and roiling, free-ranging anger spat out as if it were a substitute for insight.
Oh well, still my favorite drummer.
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Can't help it. I still like Cruisin' With Ruben & The Jets.
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Zappa's done some good stuff ("Peaches en Regalia," "Watermelon in Easter Hay"), I don't know his body of work like many of you seem to.
Oh yeah, and Black Sabbath stole his riff:
Frank Zappa - Hungry Freaks Daddy 1966 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=THGjCgi6sbA#)
Zappa to Beastie Boys in two steps!
As far as players who were in love with the sound of their own guitar, I prefer Jerry Garcia.
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If Zappa was a conservative then I wish he were more influencial on the current bunch. Facts meant something to him.
Frank Zappa Moving To Montana (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ialhaxhr7iA#)
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Tax the FUCK out of the churches!
-- Frank Zappa
The last election just laid the foundation of the next 500 years of Dark Ages.
-- Frank Zappa, in 1981
Let's not be too tough on our own ignorance. It's the thing that makes America great. If America weren't incomparably ignorant, how could we have tolerated the last eight years?
-- Frank Zappa, in 1988
I don't know. I like him.
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Some libertarians moved further to the left, e.g. Bill Maher. Frank would have been a frequent Real Time guest.
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Of all the people to be that upset with in the music business, Zappa seems like a pretty irrelevant small fish. It sounds like Tom has more of an axe to grind with a particular Zappa fan; much like his anger towards comedians with podcast who appear on other podcast. Who knows, maybe PFT is a big Zappa fan.
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Of all the people to be that upset with in the music business, Zappa seems like a pretty irrelevant small fish. It sounds like Tom has more of an axe to grind with a particular Zappa fan; much like his anger towards comedians with podcast who appear on other podcast. Who knows, maybe PFT is a big Zappa fan.
Don't paint Tom with the brush of the strident people in this thread. Tom was being funny. Others in this thread aren't.
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Some libertarians moved further to the left, e.g. Bill Maher. Frank would have been a frequent Real Time guest.
Yeah, I think Zappa and Maher would probably have pretty similar politics. Maher is also not 100% liberal on every issue, but to call him a conservative (at least by the GOP's current definition) would be pretty ridiculous.
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I don't know much about Zappa, but it's cool that he worked on Timothy Carey's weird film
(http://img18.imageshack.us/img18/5018/sinner138.jpg) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AZTNHJVDC1w)
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(Around the same time he did a pretty cool soundtrack for a grade-Z Western with Mercedes McCambridge, I forget the title.)
Oh Phooey, Tom is just as stridently anti-Zappa as anyone else here, and has certainly been talking about it longer--see the 7/3/01 show, where he challenges listeners to "name one Frank Zappa song that doesn't suck." Being funnier than us doesn't make him less uncompromising. And he does sometimes hold an artist's fans against him or her (see Waits, Tom).
(I admit I don't really know what Tom had in mind by calling him "conservative," but the strident part of me thinks any anti-Zappaism is good anti-Zappaism.)
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Lumpy Gravy (Duodenum) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fRIegpdFQqk#)
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"Valley Girl" was a cool radio hit.
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I'm genuinely confused as to how anybody can like that guy. Pompous, pretentious, self-infatuated, contemptuous of everything, and his "humor" is ridiculously sophomoric when not just scatological and gross.
Every point is irrelevant to me; I like the music, and prefer the instrumental work. Does every musical artist you consider need to submit a personality assessment to you before you decide whether you're going to listen?
People, listen to what you like.
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I may have gone into more detail about my reasons, but I don't think I've said anything more strongly anti-Zappa than Tom has on his show, several times--in fact I've even admitted liking a tiny portion of his output. Not comparing myself to Tom, but is he "intolerant" on the subject?
He's a comedian. You're some dude on a comedian's message board.
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Finally, I am of the opinion that Tom doesn't hate Tom Waits; he has admitted on a couple of podcasts that he doesn't hate all jazz.
And I would be more on board with Moe Tucker's political view if she didn't still rake in royalties from songs that celebrated bacchanalia. It's like the former stripped who doesn't want to show you her boobs anymore. Unless, of course, you slip her a fiver first.
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Here's what I meant.
While Zappa was not conservative in regard to the national/international political arena, he was aggressively anti-drug to the point of ridiculousness/insanity - he got SO preachy about any drug use while abusing coffee and cigarettes like a fiend. But the worst for me is how brutally reductive he could be to women in far too many of his lyrics. That is the conservatism that I was talking about - a real judgy all-knowing summation of an entire gender through his overly indulged and myopic rock star worldview.
I came away from the Barry Miles book ZAPPA feeling like the guy was a major creep whose crummy ways only made me hate his terrible music even more.
Tom.
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the thing that's always bummed me out about zappa (and bill maher) is the fact that it's gross to see an unapologetic misogynist heralded as a champion of civil liberties. and i recognize the potential irony of my letterman avatar.
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His wife sees things differently.
Anecdotally, my pal interviewed Gail Zappa for a prominent public radio show a few months back, and she was a psychotic controlling rude weird mean witch in every way from beginning to end of their interview session, as well as during the process of securing rights to air the interview (along with any Zappa songs as bumper music).
For whatever it's worth, in my personal experience, crazy and mean seeks out crazy and mean.
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In addition, anyone who hasn't listened to this past Thursday's WTF with Marc Maron should do so. Wayne Coyne talks about seeing Zappa in the late 70s, and how Frank had his security beat the shit out of an audience member who threw a glow stick at him while he was playing.
The incident affected Coyne so much that he recently gave a glow stick to every member of a recent audience of his, and told them to throw them at him all at once.
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I've spent a lot of time staring at it, and I have to say that that snake doesn't look real.
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Thank you Tom. Dave: Reading is fundamental.
It's one thing to have a bad personality and to make music; it's another to write your bad personality into your music.
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Here's what I meant.
While Zappa was not conservative in regard to the national/international political arena, he was aggressively anti-drug to the point of ridiculousness/insanity - he got SO preachy about any drug use while abusing coffee and cigarettes like a fiend. But the worst for me is how brutally reductive he could be to women in far too many of his lyrics. That is the conservatism that I was talking about - a real judgy all-knowing summation of an entire gender through his overly indulged and myopic rock star worldview.
I came away from the Barry Miles book ZAPPA feeling like the guy was a major creep whose crummy ways only made me hate his terrible music even more.
Tom.
I just listened to an interview Zappa did a few months before his death, from June 1993. It was to a radio call-in show. The host got him started on politics and Zappa began expressing his disappointment with Bill Clinton because he thought Clinton would raise taxes. Zappa said something to the effect of "we don't need taxes to be any higher for anyone; they're already too high, and raising taxes will drive businesses out of the country." Cutting the size of government, he argued, would be a better solution to easing the debt. Essentially he was promoting the current across-the-board lockstep GOP stance on taxes in 1993. Given how much the GOP has shifted to the right over the last decade or so, I'd say that not only was Zappa a fiscal conservative, he was eerily prescient about where the American right wing would land on economic issues 20 years in the future, where the mantra of "cut taxes" seems to be the solution to every problem.
In fact, in the this same interview, Ted Nugent, of all people, calls in and Frank and Ted begin pallin' it up like the old chums they were.
I gotta say - Frank Zappa sure did not make it easy to be a fan.
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I don't really understand why people find his drug stance so offensive (aside from him being a smoker). Do people hate Minor Threat for being straight-edge too?
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I'm genuinely confused as to how anybody can like that guy. Pompous, pretentious, self-infatuated, contemptuous of everything, and his "humor" is ridiculously sophomoric when not just scatological and gross.
Every point is irrelevant to me; I like the music, and prefer the instrumental work. Does every musical artist you consider need to submit a personality assessment to you before you decide whether you're going to listen?
People, listen to what you like.
/endthread
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Given how much the GOP has shifted to the right over the last decade or so, I'd say that not only was Zappa a fiscal conservative, he was eerily prescient about where the American right wing would land on economic issues 20 years in the future, where the mantra of "cut taxes" seems to be the solution to every problem.
So stunningly accurate about how the economy would go during the last six years of Clinton's tenure, too.
I don't think he was all that unusually prescient, though. He was riding a wave. The fanatical anti-tax position of the right got its first big burst of juice with Howard Jarvis and the Prop. 13 fight in California in 1978. Reagan made it his mantra, based on the so-called Laffer Curve, though he didn't always walk the walk. And I think it's generally believed that George H. W. Bush might well have been re-elected if not for anger on the right about his broken pledge not to raise taxes. By 1993, FZ was just another rich guy claiming that taxes on the rich harm everyone.
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You're probably too hip to explain that, but I will offer the opportunity anyway.
Thank you Tom. Dave: Reading is fundamental.
It's one thing to have a bad personality and to make music; it's another to write your bad personality into your music.
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In addition, anyone who hasn't listened to this past Thursday's WTF with Marc Maron should do so. Wayne Coyne talks about seeing Zappa in the late 70s, and how Frank had his security beat the shit out of an audience member who threw a glow stick at him while he was playing.
Might have had something to do with this:
In December 1971, there were two serious setbacks. While performing at Casino de Montreux in Switzerland, The Mothers' equipment was destroyed when a flare set off by an audience member started a fire that burned down the casino. Immortalized in Deep Purple's song "Smoke on the Water", the event and immediate aftermath can be heard on the bootleg album Swiss Cheese/Fire, released legally as part of Zappa's Beat the Boots II compilation. After a week's break, The Mothers played at the Rainbow Theatre, London, with rented gear. During the encore, an audience member pushed Zappa off the stage and into the concrete-floored orchestra pit. The band thought Zappa had been killed—he had suffered serious fractures, head trauma and injuries to his back, leg, and neck, as well as a crushed larynx, which ultimately caused his voice to drop a third after healing. This accident resulted in him using a wheelchair for an extended period, forcing him off the road for over half a year. Upon his return to the stage in September 1972, he was still wearing a leg brace, had a noticeable limp and could not stand for very long while on stage. Zappa noted that one leg healed "shorter than the other" (a reference later found in the lyrics of songs "Zomby Woof" and "Dancin' Fool"), resulting in chronic back pain.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Zappa#Accident.2C_attack_and_their_aftermath_.281971.E2.80.931972.29 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Zappa#Accident.2C_attack_and_their_aftermath_.281971.E2.80.931972.29)
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You're probably too hip to explain that, but I will offer the opportunity anyway.
It's pretty self-explanatory I thought, coming as it did in response to a comparison with James Brown, Miles Davis, Captain Beefheart and other musicians who were reportedly not nice people in their private lives. Do their personalities make it impossible for me to enjoy their music? No, because their music is for the most part uncontaminated by the specifics of their unlovely traits. Apart from the instrumentals, which I have said I can often enjoy, Zappa seemed pretty determined that you never get very far into one of his records without being reminded of what a sneering, contemptuous, audience-hating, sexist, homophobic, scat-obsessed creep he was. I love Chuck Berry's music, but if he rarely got through an album side without bringing his sexual inclinations into it, I'd start having a problem. So no, artists don't have to fill out a personality-assessment form for my sake. Make creepy records, though, and I reserve the right to be creeped out by them.
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You're probably too hip to explain that, but I will offer the opportunity anyway.
It's pretty self-explanatory I thought, coming as it did in response to a comparison with James Brown, Miles Davis, Captain Beefheart and other musicians who were reportedly not nice people in their private lives. Do their personalities make it impossible for me to enjoy their music? No, because their music is for the most part uncontaminated by the specifics of their unlovely traits. Apart from the instrumentals, which I have said I can often enjoy, Zappa seemed pretty determined that you never get very far into one of his records without being reminded of what a sneering, contemptuous, audience-hating, sexist, homophobic, scat-obsessed creep he was. I love Chuck Berry's music, but if he rarely got through an album side without bringing his sexual inclinations into it, I'd start having a problem. So no, artists don't have to fill out a personality-assessment form for my sake. Make creepy records, though, and I reserve the right to be creeped out by them.
If you read Ben Watson's book The Negative Dialectics of Poodle Play, you'll find that the theory behind Zappa's vaunted "Conceptual Continuity" was the creation of a gigantic, genre-spanning, lowbrow-meets-highbrow body of art with not merely an absent, but a malignant, moral center - it was sort of kind of well maybe the point of Zappa's whole career. Watson describes Zappa as providing what he calls "a travesty of power," and throwing up intentionally unresolvable contradictions (social liberal/fiscal conservative; anti-consumerist/petit-bourgeois; the aforementioned lowbrow/highbrow, etc.) as the primary means of creating a massive art project that cannot be comfortably absorbed into any canon. I think there may be something to that - Zappa doesn't really fit into the classic rock canon, nor does he fit into the punk canon, nor the jazz canon, nor the avant-garde canon, nor the classical canon, without some major reservations about the questionable morality undergirding both his work and his person. I think he wanted to make something big and undigestible, something that stood outside of every extant tradition.
Watson's contention about Zappa's motives is that the lyrical content of much of his work - the sexist, scatological, homophobic stuff - was not meant to represent the actual feelings of its creator; he was primarily a satirist and a social documentarian, not an artist expressing his feelings. I dunno about that. I've read enough about the guy to get the impression that he was a homophobic, sexist jerk in real life too. He had little use for friends, defining a friend as "someone who thinks they can borrow money from you." Most of his inner circle described him as getting progressively even more cynical and bitter and isolated from the real world as he got older. However, I think his misanthropic persona was somewhat created from whole cloth, at least in part, as he knew his "weirdness" as a person helped sell records (to an ever-dwindling cult, sure, but they sold enough to keep his family comfortable).
Honestly, I think Zappa was psychologically scarred by the incident in his youth when he was arrested for making a "pornographic" audio tape, and he used his ENTIRE career as a vehicle for getting back at the cop who busted him.
Like I said, he sure made it difficult to be a fan.....(maybe that was the point....I give up.)
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something that stood outside of every extant tradition.
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(Austin, I've learned quite a bit from your posts here.)
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I apologize for my tone. People that know me a little bit know that I am having a tough time, but that's no excuse for being impolite. I am sorry across the board. If I have pissed off any of you recently, it's not you, it's me. I will try to reign it in; it's part of why I have not called in for a while.
Thanks
You're probably too hip to explain that, but I will offer the opportunity anyway.
It's pretty self-explanatory I thought, coming as it did in response to a comparison with James Brown, Miles Davis, Captain Beefheart and other musicians who were reportedly not nice people in their private lives. Do their personalities make it impossible for me to enjoy their music? No, because their music is for the most part uncontaminated by the specifics of their unlovely traits. Apart from the instrumentals, which I have said I can often enjoy, Zappa seemed pretty determined that you never get very far into one of his records without being reminded of what a sneering, contemptuous, audience-hating, sexist, homophobic, scat-obsessed creep he was. I love Chuck Berry's music, but if he rarely got through an album side without bringing his sexual inclinations into it, I'd start having a problem. So no, artists don't have to fill out a personality-assessment form for my sake. Make creepy records, though, and I reserve the right to be creeped out by them.
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I apologize for my tone. People that know me a little bit know that I am having a tough time, but that's no excuse for being impolite. I am sorry across the board. If I have pissed off any of you recently, it's not you, it's me. I will try to reign it in; it's part of why I have not called in for a while.
Thanks
You're probably too hip to explain that, but I will offer the opportunity anyway.
It's pretty self-explanatory I thought, coming as it did in response to a comparison with James Brown, Miles Davis, Captain Beefheart and other musicians who were reportedly not nice people in their private lives. Do their personalities make it impossible for me to enjoy their music? No, because their music is for the most part uncontaminated by the specifics of their unlovely traits. Apart from the instrumentals, which I have said I can often enjoy, Zappa seemed pretty determined that you never get very far into one of his records without being reminded of what a sneering, contemptuous, audience-hating, sexist, homophobic, scat-obsessed creep he was. I love Chuck Berry's music, but if he rarely got through an album side without bringing his sexual inclinations into it, I'd start having a problem. So no, artists don't have to fill out a personality-assessment form for my sake. Make creepy records, though, and I reserve the right to be creeped out by them.
I'm sorry to hear you're having a tough time. I really love all your contributions to the FOT boards and the show when you do call in. Keep at it!
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I definitely agree. Whatever the tough-time shit is that's impacting your life, it's more important than where one happens to come down on some smelly hippie with a weird moustache, so strength to you, Brother, and don't worry about the apologies. (I don't! I'm a smug fuck!)
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Steve Allen show, Frank Zappa Playing music on a Bicycle 1963 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9P2V0_p6vE#)
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I thought this was a touching interview.
Zappa Interview Today Show 1993 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UDYzuwG-gOE#)
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What do you expect from someone who would name their offspring Dwerzil, Dweezil, Diva, Ahmet and Moon Unit? He was a W-E-I-R-D-O? At least, John Wesley Shipp was named after a theologian.
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What do you expect from someone who would name their offspring Dwerzil, Dweezil, Diva, Ahmet and Moon Unit? He was a W-E-I-R-D-O? At least, John Wesley Shipp was named after a theologian.
"Dwerzil"? Are you thinking of Elizaberth Dwerzil, author of Prozarc Nartion?
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He didn't want his children seen nor heard so he gave them weird names and ignored them.
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http://blogs.riverfronttimes.com/rftmusic/2010/10/moe_tucker_interview_2010_politics_tea_party_velvet_underground_video.php (http://blogs.riverfronttimes.com/rftmusic/2010/10/moe_tucker_interview_2010_politics_tea_party_velvet_underground_video.php)[/url]
What's this Mo Tucker quote about Bloomberg taking away salt? How's that for a derailment from this topic?
I will remind sensible people everywhere that this is NOT an actual political argument:
"I'm against a President dismissing any and all who dare to disagree"
Because much of the political sphere will tell you that it is. It's important that we remember that it is not.
It only is if one is making against a president that is not their guy. For example, people who talk of Obama as being a totalitarian autocrat had no problem with the previous administration's assertion of the unitary executive theory...
We now return you to our previously scheduled topic...
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Oh yeah, and Black Sabbath stole his riff:
Frank Zappa - Hungry Freaks Daddy 1966[/url (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=THGjCgi6sbA#)
Wow, it sure sounds like it. And to think, I thought The Red Hot Chili Peppers and Butthole Surfers stole the riff from Sabbath...
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Hey, man, riffs are like joints...they're only good when they're shared.
--Tommy Chong
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I kind of liked when Mo Tucker turned out to be a Tea Partier. It solidified my mental model of the Velvet Underground as comprised of people who are "non-standard issue"...for both good and ill.
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What a great thread this turned out to be. Thanks for the replies, everyone! I sure learned a lot.
For my next thread, I'll wait for Tom to say something snide about Jon Lovitz on air. 8)
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Zappa responds to a question about his treatment of women in songs.
Frank Zappa On Social Commentary About Women In His Songs (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=67x6JMI8XxM#)
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He sure put that mouthy broad in her place.
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A libertarian is a conservative who feels everybody is equal in the sense that nobody deserves a break from them.
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Zappa responds to a question about his treatment of women in songs.
Frank Zappa On Social Commentary About Women In His Songs (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=67x6JMI8XxM#)
If only he were still with us, we could be listening to more stuff like this on the Zapcast.
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John Junk! Back with a great post.
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John Junk! Back with a great post.
I like this new fellow's style.