Author Topic: here is why I hate architects....  (Read 6324 times)

Andy

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here is why I hate architects....
« on: April 02, 2008, 01:39:42 PM »
Most of them anyway:
They are brought in by the owner to design a job.  They sell the owner on their design and all this elaborate, expensive shit that they know the owner cannot afford.  Then, at some point a contractor is brought in (through negotiations or bidding) and when it comes up that the owner cannot afford everything they want, they act like you're the one keeping them from getting it (or that you're shady and you're jacking up your numbers even though they picked you)

I have this owner that LOVES me.  They know that I'm fair and honest and I work hard and get done on time.  This owner also has a tendency to hire architects who promise them the moon.  The current budget I'm putting together, the architect has been signed up since September and I probably have 50% drawings that they are saying are 90% complete.  They know that I have to live with them and so they are more than willing to put out shitty drawings, which forces me to have to go through their drawings with a fine tooth comb because I know that if I don't, know one will.

They also do shit like spec OUTRAGEOUS stuff that can only be purchased from their supplier buddies in Kansas City.  They have a poly sheet material that is $1400 raw costs just for the material in 4x8 sheet form.  Then, they hang it on the wall in 4x6 configuration so that you have to waste 2' of material for each of these hanging items.  Then, the owner puts me in the bad situation of "where can we cut money to get in budget"  and I'm stuck being the bad guy and saying "these things are expensive and can be done cheaper, but they are also awesome looking so you lose a lot of effect by doing it that way"

This is exactly the reason so many agencies are now going with the Construction Management (or better yet, Design-Build) contracts.

Fuck Architects.  Fuck them.  Fuck.  Them.
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Gilly

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Re: here is why I hate architects....
« Reply #1 on: April 02, 2008, 02:05:06 PM »
Haven't you posted this before?

todd

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Re: here is why I hate architects....
« Reply #2 on: April 02, 2008, 02:25:39 PM »
Haven't you posted this before?

The banalities of the construction world are so central to all of our lives that it bears repeating as often as necessary.

Andy

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Re: here is why I hate architects....
« Reply #3 on: April 02, 2008, 02:34:49 PM »
I probably have.  And it needs to be pointed out that some of my best friends are architects, I just hate shitty architects.
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Sarah

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Re: here is why I hate architects....
« Reply #4 on: April 02, 2008, 03:47:23 PM »
I like Andy's anti-architect rants.  I welcome all rants that give me an insight into someone else's particular niche in the world.  Often they are interesting, and sometimes they make me even more grateful for my particular pit.

Gilly

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Re: here is why I hate architects....
« Reply #5 on: April 02, 2008, 04:15:58 PM »
Oh yeah, I have no problem with the rant I was just making sure I wasn't experiencing deja vu or something. I might have to leave the forums if I am dreaming about Andy's posts about bad architects.

Here it is:

Quote
This is a rant to make myself feel better.

I try not to hate architects.  I went to school for 3 years with them and some of my best friends are architects, but man oh man are they douchebags.  They don't "produce" anything.  The only way that they can make more money is to not spend as much time on projects, so the most "successful" architects are the ones that can do the absolute minimum required on each project so that they can be working on the maximum number of projects possible.

THEN they try to act like contractors should have figured out the details that they neglected to spend the time to work out. Then it becomes "our" problem and I'm asked to screw my subs because "they should have known they were going to have to do that" even though we made them bid the work and we had to go with the lowest bidder (which is another shitty system)

I could go on for hours, but I'll sum it up:

I know there are a lot of shady contractors.  I'm not one of them.  The owner has figured that out to the point that they not only handed me a 12+ million dollar project without even talking to anyone else, they also delayed their high profile project a full year to be able to work with me (not with the company I work for, with me.)  Why can't this cheesedick architect stop trying to be adversarial before the project has even started?

I don't want to, but I'm about to be forced to throw him under the bus a couple of times just to make a point.

I'm not losing it! Rant on!

Andy

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Re: here is why I hate architects....
« Reply #6 on: April 02, 2008, 04:56:27 PM »
same architect, same project.  that pretty much sums up the progress that they have made in the last 4 months
Breakfast- I'm havin' a time
Wheelies- I'm havin' a time
Headlocks- I'm havin' a time
Drunk Tank- not so much a time
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Bingo- I'm havin' a time
House Arrest- I'm still havin' a time

yesno

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Re: here is why I hate architects....
« Reply #7 on: April 02, 2008, 05:10:31 PM »
I don't know too much about this field, but I imagine Construction Management firms do everything in house, from design to contracting?

It seems like if there are irreconcilable conflicts between architects, designers, and builders, then the client should only have to deal with one firm where everything is in house or with one super-contractor who is responsible for resolving these conflicts so that the client doesn't have to deal with them.

Andy

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Re: here is why I hate architects....
« Reply #8 on: April 02, 2008, 05:26:29 PM »
that's the way the industry is headed, but it's called "design build", where the "design builder"(almost always a contractor) hires an architect and is a sole point of contact for the owner.  right now construction management is all the rage, where the contractor is brought in during the architect's design so that they can give input for pricing/sequencing/constructability issues.  the problem is, architects have been in control of the construction process for so long that they don't like it and don't want to cooperate.  owners are recognizing this and moving towards design build.  for a conscientious contractor like myself, this is a great thing.

while I was typing this I got a call from one of the consultants who works for the architect that brought about the original post.  Even the outside consultants that work for this douche come to me when they need an answer.  I have to tell them "no" rather than helping them for liability reasons, but it does feel good to know that they realize he's an idiot.
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Wheelies- I'm havin' a time
Headlocks- I'm havin' a time
Drunk Tank- not so much a time
George St.- I'm havin' a time
Brenda- I'm havin' a time
Bingo- I'm havin' a time
House Arrest- I'm still havin' a time

Joe Rogaine

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Re: here is why I hate architects....
« Reply #9 on: April 02, 2008, 05:50:30 PM »
Most of them anyway:
They are brought in by the owner to design a job.  They sell the owner on their design and all this elaborate, expensive shit that they know the owner cannot afford.  Then, at some point a contractor is brought in (through negotiations or bidding) and when it comes up that the owner cannot afford everything they want, they act like you're the one keeping them from getting it (or that you're shady and you're jacking up your numbers even though they picked you)

I have this owner that LOVES me.  They know that I'm fair and honest and I work hard and get done on time.  This owner also has a tendency to hire architects who promise them the moon.  The current budget I'm putting together, the architect has been signed up since September and I probably have 50% drawings that they are saying are 90% complete.  They know that I have to live with them and so they are more than willing to put out shitty drawings, which forces me to have to go through their drawings with a fine tooth comb because I know that if I don't, know one will.

They also do shit like spec OUTRAGEOUS stuff that can only be purchased from their supplier buddies in Kansas City.  They have a poly sheet material that is $1400 raw costs just for the material in 4x8 sheet form.  Then, they hang it on the wall in 4x6 configuration so that you have to waste 2' of material for each of these hanging items.  Then, the owner puts me in the bad situation of "where can we cut money to get in budget"  and I'm stuck being the bad guy and saying "these things are expensive and can be done cheaper, but they are also awesome looking so you lose a lot of effect by doing it that way"

This is exactly the reason so many agencies are now going with the Construction Management (or better yet, Design-Build) contracts.

Fuck Architects.  Fuck them.  Fuck.  Them.


Ha is that Dave Mcdonald with a Will Oldham haircut?

Andy

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Re: here is why I hate architects....
« Reply #10 on: April 02, 2008, 05:50:57 PM »
yep.
Breakfast- I'm havin' a time
Wheelies- I'm havin' a time
Headlocks- I'm havin' a time
Drunk Tank- not so much a time
George St.- I'm havin' a time
Brenda- I'm havin' a time
Bingo- I'm havin' a time
House Arrest- I'm still havin' a time

Josh

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Re: here is why I hate architects....
« Reply #11 on: April 02, 2008, 06:43:31 PM »
It seems like if there are irreconcilable conflicts between architects, designers, and builders

That's kind of the idea. Checks and balances. The architect is the client's representative on the jobsite. In a traditional construction situation, the construction documents are a contract between the client and the contractor, and the architect ensures that those documents are executed.

It gets hairier when a client wants to fast track/design-build and/or when the client is the developer and/or contractor. Because you bypass the competitive bidding process, you're pretty much tied to a contractor from the get-go, and you'll never know if another contractor would have been willing to do the job for less. At least in my experience, the RFI/NTC process is almost totally abandoned which inevitably leads to a lot of he said/they said, and there's the chance that the architect and contractor will collude to take the client to the cleaners. But, like anything, it always comes down to money. Architects are typically paid a percentage of the final construction cost, which obviously gives them the incentive to increase the budget. Contractors usually bid a price prior to construction and thus their incentive is to keep costs lower so they can pocket extra dough. Of course, the client never wants to pay anyone.
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Andy

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Re: here is why I hate architects....
« Reply #12 on: April 02, 2008, 09:38:44 PM »
That's kind of the idea. Checks and balances. The architect is the client's representative on the jobsite. In a traditional construction situation, the construction documents are a contract between the client and the contractor, and the architect ensures that those documents are executed.
In theory this is correct.  Unfortunately, architecture school is taught by those who view architecture as an art, not a vocation.  Most architects that we work with care very little about the construction administration portion of the job because they don't get paid very well by the owners to do it (they frontload their service fee schedule) and because it's not capital "A" Architecture.  It's not sexy.

Because you bypass the competitive bidding process, you're pretty much tied to a contractor from the get-go, and you'll never know if another contractor would have been willing to do the job for less.
Being a respectable contractor, I would argue that price isn't always equal to value.  The company I work for is a $100mil a month contractor and we no longer bid anything.  To me, the bid process is what breeds the contempt between architects/contractors.  When you're forced to bid a job, you have to assume the cheapest alternative if the plans are ambiguous or contradictory because you know everyone else will be assuming that.  Then, it's a fight over money from the first day.

At least in my experience, the RFI/NTC process is almost totally abandoned which inevitably leads to a lot of he said/they said, and there's the chance that the architect and contractor will collude to take the client to the cleaners.
On the first point: both parties get what they deserve if they don't document everything.  On the second: the owners we work for all have sophisticated systems in place, but we provide them with "bundle billings" that show every invoice charged to the job, all out rates, etc...  Again, we're reputable so it's not a problem, but I see what you're saying with shady contractors.

But, like anything, it always comes down to money. Architects are typically paid a percentage of the final construction cost, which obviously gives them the incentive to increase the budget. Contractors usually bid a price prior to construction and thus their incentive is to keep costs lower so they can pocket extra dough. Of course, the client never wants to pay anyone.
This is the key to it.  The architect that is pissing me off right now is doing so because he is not being a good steward of the clients money.  He's specifying ridiculous shit that he knows they can't afford.  On top of that, he's trying to slip in a bunch of performance spec's, whereby our subs have to provide the engineering for interior walls, exterior walls, roof systems, etc... This would be totally acceptable in a Design-Build situation, but as it is, the architect is getting paid his percentage just like a normal job, but he is transferring his work onto the sub and in doing so is inflating their numbers (and his own take because he gets paid on the percentage of the  construction contract.)

This shit is really interesting to me, unfortunately the day to day idiocy of the jobsite gets to me more than it should.  I think I'll probably end up being either an estimator or a Construction Science professor.

Josh- you obviously know a bunch about the industry.  Are you attached in some capacity professionally?
Breakfast- I'm havin' a time
Wheelies- I'm havin' a time
Headlocks- I'm havin' a time
Drunk Tank- not so much a time
George St.- I'm havin' a time
Brenda- I'm havin' a time
Bingo- I'm havin' a time
House Arrest- I'm still havin' a time