Really Iowa?

[Gilly]

I think a drastically progressive candidate is just as bad as a drastically conservative candidate right now because of how polarized America has become. By electing any of the big six candidates we effectively alienate half of America and I'm sick of living in that kind of a world. The country needs to come to a compromise and get the economy back in shape. I really think that involves putting social issues on the back burner for a little bit, getting out of Iraq and putting a fiscal conservative in office and Ron Paul is the only guy who'd be able to do all three of those things. He doesn't have enough control in Senate to push social issues, he wants to get out of Iraq as quickly as possible and most importantly he has very good ideas to fix the economy. He makes sense to me.

[Chris L]

"Newsletter?  Whuuuuut?"

[TL]

I think a drastically progressive candidate is just as bad as a drastically conservative candidate right now because of how polarized America has become. By electing any of the big six candidates we effectively alienate half of America and I'm sick of living in that kind of a world. The country needs to come to a compromise and get the economy back in shape. I really think that involves putting social issues on the back burner for a little bit, getting out of Iraq and putting a fiscal conservative in office and Ron Paul is the only guy who'd be able to do all three of those things. He doesn't have enough control in Senate to push social issues, he wants to get out of Iraq as quickly as possible and most importantly he has very good ideas to fix the economy. He makes sense to me.

First of all, Ron Paul IS a drastically conservative candidate - socially AND fiscally.  Second, I don't think social issues should EVER have to be put on the back burner, but if he doesn't have enough control in the senate to push social issues, what makes you think he has the control to "fix the economy?"
warning - impending hyperbole:  You know who else put social issues on the back burner to focus on getting the economy fixed?  Weimar Germany.
That's right - I said it.

[Forrest]

As I tell my old man, we'll debate six percentage points in income tax the second people aren't getting killed over a war started over faulty intelligence and imperialistic fantasies. The fact that the economy is the number one issue in exit polls makes me want to vomit. You want lower taxes? Not starting endless bullshit wars that cost hundreds of billions of dollars that only serve to destabilize an entire region of the globe would be a good way to cut costs. I don't even consider myself a fiscal liberal, but anyone that still thinks this war is righteous should be required to get their fat ass up, pony up as much as they can afford to 'protect our freedom' and put their cellulite in range of every suicide bomb to ensure the safety of our guys and gals over there that fight for these boobs' right to laze around in their gated communities. Y'know...just my opinion. 

[TL]

As I tell my old man, we'll debate six percentage points in income tax the second people aren't getting killed over a war started over faulty intelligence and imperialistic fantasies. The fact that the economy is the number one issue in exit polls makes me want to vomit. You want lower taxes? Not starting endless bullshit wars that cost hundreds of billions of dollars that only serve to destabilize an entire region of the globe would be a good way to cut costs. I don't even consider myself a fiscal liberal, but anyone that still thinks this war is righteous should be required to get their fat ass up, pony up as much as they can afford to 'protect our freedom' and put their cellulite in range of every suicide bomb to ensure the safety of our guys and gals over there that fight for these boobs' right to laze around in their gated communities. Y'know...just my opinion. 

Agreed - and to be fair, I think Ron Paul agrees with that, too.
I like your cellulite idea though - maybe we could build the Mexican border wall out of it, also.
Would YOU want to try and climb "over" that?

[Beth]

I agree that the economy sinking into oblivion is completely the fault of how our current government has chosen to spend its money, but it also is an issue that can't be put on the back burner to the war, seeing how it's kind of a cause and effect thing.  Whoever it is that wins the White House is going to have a royal mess on their hands. People are losing their homes, soaring gas prices are making everything more expensive, and hourly wages are NOT being adjusted for inflation. It's important to remember that a bad economy affects the poor as well.

Living in rural America, I see and feel the effects of a crumbling economy every day, and its making life for me and for everyone else much more expensive and difficult. I believe that it can be resolved, but it is nonetheless an issue that needs to be addressed. My number one issue is still war spending, but since the economy is a part of that, it should be included somewhere.

[Beth]

Getting back to the thread's original topic, it looks like New Hampshire didn't like Huckabee nearly as much as Iowa, though I really have no idea what any of this really means as far as the candidates likelihood of ultimate success.  The electoral college and our entire voting system are in my hate pit. Ugh.

[Gilly]

I don't think I'm going to win any political argument here since it seems the majority of the community are hardcore liberals. I have no beef with that, I just am fiscally conservative and that's the most important thing to me right now along with the war. Socially, I tend to be progressive, but I do have my hang-ups with abortion (and I'm not going to get into that...I think I'm pro-choice but it disgusts me at the same time that I feel that way). My big problem is that Republicans are not voting for Paul. Most people who vote conservative only do so because of their morals and have nothing to gain in what the Republican product sells. Paul allows them to vote on their morals and do what's best for them financially. That's what really bugs me.

[TL]

I don't think I'm going to win any political argument here since it seems the majority of the community are hardcore liberals. I have no beef with that, I just am fiscally conservative and that's the most important thing to me right now along with the war. Socially, I tend to be progressive, but I do have my hang-ups with abortion (and I'm not going to get into that...I think I'm pro-choice but it disgusts me at the same time that I feel that way). My big problem is that Republicans are not voting for Paul. Most people who vote conservative only do so because of their morals and have nothing to gain in what the Republican product sells. Paul allows them to vote on their morals and do what's best for them financially. That's what really bugs me.

Well, all we're really arguing about is Ron Paul.  But trust me - my life is a constant friction between Socialist dreams and a FIERCE Libertarian individualism (does that make me a Chomskyite Anarchist - Libertarian Socialist?  Maybe so...) - I don't think I am a "hard-core Liberal" in the way that these words tend to play out in our current level of political discourse, but I despise what the Republican party is: socially conservative and fiscally liberal.  Ron Paul is only "revolutionary" in context.  And no matter what, I can NOT shake the idea that he's a racist, homosexual hating, science denying MEDICAL DOCTOR (help me understand that one), and no matter how smart his fiscal policy may be (and getting rid of the FED in favor of bimetallism is not that smart, in my opinion, nor is the free market alone, in any way shape or form, EVER going to take power back from all of the "elitist cartels" he talks about, and put it into the hands of the people), I will not give my support to someone - the proposed leader of our country - who feels that way about what we're actually demeaning in this discussion by calling "social issues" - thinking, empathy, evidence, humanity, openness - not just "social issues," and how one thinks of them says buckets more about who one is than how one feels about a return to the gold standard.

[Laurie]

I forgot to mention one more thing about the Ron Paul fan I met yesterday. Let me preface this by saying that I'm not trying to imply that he's representative of Ron Paul backers, as he's the only one I've actually met in person. I just think it's an astonishing example of willful ignorance and felt compelled to share.

So, this fellow -- let's call Sunny D -- is going on and on about Ron Paul. I ask him why he likes him. He brings up the right to bear arms bullshit, so I ask him to go on. He moves onto the GOLD STANDARD issue. He thinks it's important to go back to the gold standard since we're borrowing money from China. I tell him we wouldn't have to do that if the asshole currently shitting all over the floors of the White House didn't get us into this clusterfuck in Iraq. (I didn't use such colorful language, but that's the gist of what I said.) He says, "Whatever, we're in it, it happened," and I consent, because if wishes were horses, I would have a pony named Pickles. He starts to go into how we're borrowing money from a Communist country, so I say, "It's not so whitewashed. They're investing in our economy through our economy." He butts in with this charming non-sequitur: "Didn't we bomb China? Twice?!" I tell him, "No, that was Japan." He says, "WHATEVER! SAME THING!" I should have asked him how he felt about That Guy from Idaho calling all Latin Americans "Mexicans," regardless of their heritage. I didn't. I was taken aback by his willful racism.

Thus ends my Sunny D anecdotes. My department's teller is back from vacation, so I won't be seeing this guy anytime soon.

[Stan]

I forgot to mention one more thing about the Ron Paul fan I met yesterday. Let me preface this by saying that I'm not trying to imply that he's representative of Ron Paul backers, as he's the only one I've actually met in person. I just think it's an astonishing example of willful ignorance and felt compelled to share.

So, this fellow -- let's call Sunny D -- is going on and on about Ron Paul. I ask him why he likes him. He brings up the right to bear arms bullshit, so I ask him to go on. He moves onto the GOLD STANDARD issue. He thinks it's important to go back to the gold standard since we're borrowing money from China. I tell him we wouldn't have to do that if the asshole currently shitting all over the floors of the White House didn't get us into this clusterfuck in Iraq. (I didn't use such colorful language, but that's the gist of what I said.) He says, "Whatever, we're in it, it happened," and I consent, because if wishes were horses, I would have a pony named Pickles. He starts to go into how we're borrowing money from a Communist country, so I say, "It's not so whitewashed. They're investing in our economy through our economy." He butts in with this charming non-sequitur: "Didn't we bomb China? Twice?!" I tell him, "No, that was China." He says, "WHATEVER! SAME THING!" I should have asked him how he felt about That Guy from Idaho calling all Latin Americans "Mexicans," regardless of their heritage. I didn't. I was taken aback by his willful racism.

Thus ends my Sunny D anecdotes. My department's teller is back from vacation, so I won't be seeing this guy anytime soon.

 Was the second China supposed to be Japan?

[TL]

I forgot to mention one more thing about the Ron Paul fan I met yesterday. Let me preface this by saying that I'm not trying to imply that he's representative of Ron Paul backers, as he's the only one I've actually met in person. I just think it's an astonishing example of willful ignorance and felt compelled to share.

So, this fellow -- let's call Sunny D -- is going on and on about Ron Paul. I ask him why he likes him. He brings up the right to bear arms bullshit, so I ask him to go on. He moves onto the GOLD STANDARD issue. He thinks it's important to go back to the gold standard since we're borrowing money from China. I tell him we wouldn't have to do that if the asshole currently shitting all over the floors of the White House didn't get us into this clusterfuck in Iraq. (I didn't use such colorful language, but that's the gist of what I said.) He says, "Whatever, we're in it, it happened," and I consent, because if wishes were horses, I would have a pony named Pickles. He starts to go into how we're borrowing money from a Communist country, so I say, "It's not so whitewashed. They're investing in our economy through our economy." He butts in with this charming non-sequitur: "Didn't we bomb China? Twice?!" I tell him, "No, that was China." He says, "WHATEVER! SAME THING!" I should have asked him how he felt about That Guy from Idaho calling all Latin Americans "Mexicans," regardless of their heritage. I didn't. I was taken aback by his willful racism.

Thus ends my Sunny D anecdotes. My department's teller is back from vacation, so I won't be seeing this guy anytime soon.

Can't you just BUY a pony and name it "Pickles?"

[Laurie]

I forgot to mention one more thing about the Ron Paul fan I met yesterday. Let me preface this by saying that I'm not trying to imply that he's representative of Ron Paul backers, as he's the only one I've actually met in person. I just think it's an astonishing example of willful ignorance and felt compelled to share.

So, this fellow -- let's call Sunny D -- is going on and on about Ron Paul. I ask him why he likes him. He brings up the right to bear arms bullshit, so I ask him to go on. He moves onto the GOLD STANDARD issue. He thinks it's important to go back to the gold standard since we're borrowing money from China. I tell him we wouldn't have to do that if the asshole currently shitting all over the floors of the White House didn't get us into this clusterfuck in Iraq. (I didn't use such colorful language, but that's the gist of what I said.) He says, "Whatever, we're in it, it happened," and I consent, because if wishes were horses, I would have a pony named Pickles. He starts to go into how we're borrowing money from a Communist country, so I say, "It's not so whitewashed. They're investing in our economy through our economy." He butts in with this charming non-sequitur: "Didn't we bomb China? Twice?!" I tell him, "No, that was JAPAN." He says, "WHATEVER! SAME THING!" I should have asked him how he felt about That Guy from Idaho calling all Latin Americans "Mexicans," regardless of their heritage. I didn't. I was taken aback by his willful racism.

Thus ends my Sunny D anecdotes. My department's teller is back from vacation, so I won't be seeing this guy anytime soon.

 Was the second China supposed to be Japan?

Yes, I fixed it. I ruined my anecdote by typing too quickly.

[Phantom Hugger]

  The electoral college and our entire voting system are in my hate pit. Ugh.

[Shaggy 2 Grote]

Yeah, Laurie, therein lies my problem with Ron Paul, which is namely the contingent of militia-nut whack-jobs who love the guy (I don't mean you, Gilly, reasonable people like him too).  I've had experiences similar to Laurie's and even cut a friend loose because I couldn't stand it anymore (he was like this long before Ron Paul).

Basic libertarianism sounds appealing on paper - who likes to deal with the government? But Adam Smith was writing about a pre-industrial economy.  Every large economy since a little while after industrialization has been Keynesian (that is, the government intervenes to redistribute wealth).  It doesn't matter what they call themselves - Social Democratic, capitalist, Communist, fascist.  The problem with libertarian conservatism is that, like Soviet Communism, it's largely impossible in practice.  So instead what you get is what we have with the Bush administration, that is, military Keynesianism that costs some insane amount of money, like billions a day, huge deficits, a devalued dollar, and massive cuts to the federal government - but instead of these cuts resulting in a smaller, more efficient government, it's resulted in a privatization scheme wherein millions of our tax dollars are funneled to well-connected contractors who aren't accountable at all.  It's like they took the playbook from the collapse of Rome. 

Anyway, I doubt the ability of any elected leader to solve the mess we're in, but it's also naive to say that it doesn't matter at all. 

And Forrest, I wouldn't be so hard on the people putting the economy first - a lot of people have been living off of their home equity because it's so hard to get a living wage anymore and now they're losing their homes.  It's not just the assjerks with Hummers.

And Laurie, I stand should-to-shoulder with you in the struggle against dangerous racist creeps even though Supergirl is from fucking Argo.