POLL: MAD MEN: Which tier?

[Chris L]

So what's going on with Sal?  Did Don believe his story, but think that he should have "befriended" the Lucky Strikes guy for business reasons? (That was my first interpretation.)  Or did Don not believe his story, and think that Sal *did* get onto very good terms with the Lucky Strikes guy, or even that Sal hit on the Lucky Strikes guy himself?

Anyway, those last two eps were both depressing.  Every single main character is a creep in Mad Men now.

I think Don thinks Sal made a pass at the guy.  Don may be pretty tolerant for 1963 but he's still a man of his era.  His response to Sal's "What if it was some girl" does make me wonder what if it was Peggy or Joan in that situation.   I think he'd fire them in a heartbeat too.

[Sarah]

Poor Sal couldn't win no matter what.  If he'd done what the Lucky Strike guy wanted, LS guy would probably have been so ashamed/worried/etc. that he'd still have insisted Sal be fired.  It's less likely that would have happened to a lady who had agreed to canoodle.

[wwwes]

I definitely interpreted it as Don saying Sal should have done something with the LS guy for the good of the account. If it were Harry that had a guy make a pass at him, Don would have reacted differently. Of course, this is not to say that Don thinks Sal actually did reject the guy. Don knows that either way, Sal was screwed because he didn't have control over his personal life, as evidenced by his complete meltdown.

Don is a character that I can respect, even if I think he's an asshole. Sal is a character I have sympathy for, but very little respect. Can anyone honestly say differently?

[gravy boat]

I definitely interpreted it as Don saying Sal should have done something with the LS guy for the good of the account. If it were Harry that had a guy make a pass at him, Don would have reacted differently. Of course, this is not to say that Don thinks Sal actually did reject the guy. Don knows that either way, Sal was screwed because he didn't have control over his personal life, as evidenced by his complete meltdown.

Don is a character that I can respect, even if I think he's an asshole. Sal is a character I have sympathy for, but very little respect. Can anyone honestly say differently?

I have more respect for Sal as a human than Don.  I would respect Don as a boss or co-worker but from the shows I've seen (I have not seen every episode) I have little respect for him when he leaves the agency door-- he cheats on his wife constantly; he's a crappy dad; he's dishonest about his past; and, worst of all, the way he nonchalantly harms people with his second-hand smoke galls me.

[Wes]

I'm excited/confused that my theory that Conrad Hilton is grooming Don to assassinate JFK in the season finale has sprung up elsewhere (someone came to the same conclusion in the AVClub comments for this week's episode). They haven't gotten into the same level of detail - those two Italian guys who tried to pick up Betty are Hilton's hitmen, Sally's teacher as Don's Queen of Diamonds handler, Hilton choosing Don because the original Don Draper was an expert marksman in the War - yet, but this clearly means it must be true. I think this week indicated that "I want the moon" will be the hypnotic trigger Hitlon uses to make Don go to the grassy knoll.

I definitely interpreted it as Don saying Sal should have done something with the LS guy for the good of the account.

Yes, in fact, didn't Don himself reluctantly agree to sleep with Jimmy Barrett's wife last season in order to save the Utz deal? In his own Draper-logic way, he wasn't expecting Sal to do anything that he didn't already do in service of keeping a wealthy client happy.

In this show more than almost any other, I do not equate sympathy or morality with enjoyment of the characters. Roger Sterling is loathsome, and I even know and have worked directly for someone just like him and didn't enjoy it, but as a TV character, I love watching him.

[wwwes]

In this show more than almost any other, I do not equate sympathy or morality with enjoyment of the characters. Roger Sterling is loathsome, and I even know and have worked directly for someone just like him and didn't enjoy it, but as a TV character, I love watching him.

This is my feeling as well. Don Draper is portrayed in an even less sympathetic light than Tony Soprano. But I think the show boils down to what Sterling Cooper said in the first season: "This country was built and run by men with worse stories than whatever you've imagined here." The show builds a beautiful stained glass depiction of an era, takes a hammer and breaks it down piece by piece, then repeats the process.

[David]

I'm glad they aren't seeking sympathy for Don's character as much as they might have in the first two seasons. Sure, he cheated and drank and lied, but the harder edges of the time, namely the racism, sexism and heterosexism never seemed to sway Don as much as Roger or Betty. I'll always sympathize with the non-bigot in the room, if surrounded by bigots. But now Don's acting out the times, with his constant cruelty toward Peggy and in this past episode, his treatment of Salvatore, specifically using the phrase "you people."

I really thought they went too easy on him for a while, but now they seem to be showing the rougher edges.

This whole post, of course, hinging on not considering Don's actions in season one anti-Semitic, which while they certainly were, I think the show was trying to justify them, or at least explain them.

[jbissell]

But now Don's acting out the times, with his constant cruelty toward Peggy

I guess I haven't really viewed it as sexism.  I get the impression he thinks she's being greedy and trying to get ahead too fast.  Obviously the fact that she started as his secretary has something to do with it, but he's treated Pete in a similar way in the past.

[Jack from Arkansas]

There's not one redeemable decent likeable character on this show.  While it is sexy,  I'm done with it.

[Kim Kelly]

My mom worked for a Madison Avenue ad agency, Young & Rubicam, in the '70s. She says Mad Men is pretty accurate, and watching it every week reminds her how stressed out she was during her years there.

[Chris L]

But now Don's acting out the times, with his constant cruelty toward Peggy

I guess I haven't really viewed it as sexism.  I get the impression he thinks she's being greedy and trying to get ahead too fast.  Obviously the fact that she started as his secretary has something to do with it, but he's treated Pete in a similar way in the past.

Yeah, he was definitely cruel but I thought he had a point about her getting better first, even though there was a component of sexism ("You have a job a grown man would want").

It's hard to care about likability too much, post-Sopranos.   How many other series are there with three weirdos like Peggy, Pete and Betty in such prominent roles?

[Wes]

But now Don's acting out the times, with his constant cruelty toward Peggy

I guess I haven't really viewed it as sexism.  I get the impression he thinks she's being greedy and trying to get ahead too fast.  Obviously the fact that she started as his secretary has something to do with it, but he's treated Pete in a similar way in the past.

Yeah, he was definitely cruel but I thought he had a point about her getting better first, even though there was a component of sexism ("You have a job a grown man would want").

It's hard to care about likability too much, post-Sopranos.   How many other series are there with three weirdos like Peggy, Pete and Betty in such prominent roles?

I agree about him being a bit in the right about yelling at Peggy. The first time he did it, she asked for a raise immediately after he came out of a fight with the British about the staff spending too much on note pads, horrible timing on her part. And she followed up that rebuke with her incredibly creepy line about how Don has so much, and she wants everything in his life. That was Robot Pete level weird. I really do hope she and Pete end up together as thrillkillers in the next season or two.

The second time he yelled at her was after that very clumsy attempt to get dirt on the Hilton account. More bad timing on her part and he was right to let her know how obvious she was being and how that wouldn't play with anybody. He put her on the account in the end anyway.

I actually took this past week's back and forth of the window ads to be the most he's treated her like a real colleague. Telling her that just because he had an idea doesn't mean it's not a bad idea and that she and her team should keep giving him lousy ideas until they came up with a good one was sound Draperian advice.

[Chris L]

She might also want to stop with the smug looks every time things don't go Don's way with a client.  If someone could set their time machine to "Fictional Characters: 1963" and convey that advice, I'd be relieved.  Thanks. 

[yesno]

The nerve of Peggy wanting to be paid the same amount of money for the same work.  What does she think this is, the 22nd Century?

[thom]

I hope this season ends with Kennedy not getting killed.