The Joy Thread

[Beth]

I know a little something about the bible, you know what Jesus said about gays?
Nothing.

Both sides rationalize when it comes to this. While Jesus never said being gay is a sin, it's very blatant in the Old Testament that it is... and then you get in to the whole debate of what we should take literally in those books. Some things are obviously meant for their time but there are a lot of things that definitely carried over after Jesus was born. So, the argument can't be made that just because it's in the old law it needs to be discredited.

Jesus' teaching showed compassion and love and he never forced his teaching on anybody else or became angered by sin unless people were using God for self profit. But, then you have the Apostle Paul who's writings and teachings were at times forceful, dictating right and wrong. You also have accounts of God striking down entire cities for immorality. There's rationalization on both sides. IMO, the teachings of Jesus should be held above all but there is definitely material in the Bible that backs a yes vote on Prop 8 and a lot of pastors are preaching that all across the country.

I'm not extraordinarily well-versed in the Old Testament, but doesn't the Bible also classify lots of other things besides homosexuality as "abominations", like rare meat, shellfish, shaving, wearing blended fabrics, and charging and paying interest? It seems like selective quoting to me.
It doesn't seem fair that the Bible, which is so self-contradictory, has and is still being used as a basis for laws in this country. I'll never get it. Separation of Church and State is complete and total bullshit at this point.

[Phantom Hugger]

I know a little something about the bible, you know what Jesus said about gays?
Nothing.

Both sides rationalize when it comes to this. While Jesus never said being gay is a sin, it's very blatant in the Old Testament that it is... and then you get in to the whole debate of what we should take literally in those books. Some things are obviously meant for their time but there are a lot of things that definitely carried over after Jesus was born. So, the argument can't be made that just because it's in the old law it needs to be discredited.

Jesus' teaching showed compassion and love and he never forced his teaching on anybody else or became angered by sin unless people were using God for self profit. But, then you have the Apostle Paul who's writings and teachings were at times forceful, dictating right and wrong. You also have accounts of God striking down entire cities for immorality. There's rationalization on both sides. IMO, the teachings of Jesus should be held above all but there is definitely material in the Bible that backs a yes vote on Prop 8 and a lot of pastors are preaching that all across the country.

I'm not extraordinarily well-versed in the Old Testament, but doesn't the Bible also classify lots of other things besides homosexuality as "abominations", like rare meat, shellfish, shaving, wearing blended fabrics, and charging and paying interest? It seems like selective quoting to me.
It doesn't seem fair that the Bible, which is so self-contradictory, has and is still being used as a basis for laws in this country. I'll never get it. Separation of Church and State is complete and total bullshit at this point.

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/

Friday afternoon time killer.

[Gilly]

I know a little something about the bible, you know what Jesus said about gays?
Nothing.

Both sides rationalize when it comes to this. While Jesus never said being gay is a sin, it's very blatant in the Old Testament that it is... and then you get in to the whole debate of what we should take literally in those books. Some things are obviously meant for their time but there are a lot of things that definitely carried over after Jesus was born. So, the argument can't be made that just because it's in the old law it needs to be discredited.

Jesus' teaching showed compassion and love and he never forced his teaching on anybody else or became angered by sin unless people were using God for self profit. But, then you have the Apostle Paul who's writings and teachings were at times forceful, dictating right and wrong. You also have accounts of God striking down entire cities for immorality. There's rationalization on both sides. IMO, the teachings of Jesus should be held above all but there is definitely material in the Bible that backs a yes vote on Prop 8 and a lot of pastors are preaching that all across the country.

I'm not extraordinarily well-versed in the Old Testament, but doesn't the Bible also classify lots of other things besides homosexuality as "abominations", like rare meat, shellfish, shaving, wearing blended fabrics, and charging and paying interest? It seems like selective quoting to me.
It doesn't seem fair that the Bible, which is so self-contradictory, has and is still being used as a basis for laws in this country. I'll never get it. Separation of Church and State is complete and total bullshit at this point.

Yes, but there are a lot of other Old Testament laws, especially the ten commandments which are still revered to this day. What I'm saying is that both arguments are weak, both ignore certain parts of the Old Testament.

Religion will always be a part of law because most people's moral code come from religious teachings. Would there be a moral code if an idea of gods never existed or would we have figured out right and wrong for ourselves? If there weren't religions would we be in the same place when it comes to gay marriage? A lot of people who aren't religious look at a gay couple and see something inherently wrong.

[Anonymous 43]

Wow, The friends of tom forum really is dead.

[erika]

Ugh then why are you still here?

In the meantime, http://blog.wired.com/geekdad/2008/11/5-signs-preside.html (5 Signs President-Elect Obama Is a Geek)

[John Junk 2.0]

Wow, The friends of tom forum really is dead.

Wow.



Holy Cow.



Jeez.


OMFG.









Oh Man!!

[Anonymous 43]

Ugh then why are you still here?

There are a couple of people on here (who post rarely these days) that I like to read.  You and John Junk aren't among them.

Also, Tom's great and The Best Show brings it every time.

[Beth]

I know a little something about the bible, you know what Jesus said about gays?
Nothing.

Both sides rationalize when it comes to this. While Jesus never said being gay is a sin, it's very blatant in the Old Testament that it is... and then you get in to the whole debate of what we should take literally in those books. Some things are obviously meant for their time but there are a lot of things that definitely carried over after Jesus was born. So, the argument can't be made that just because it's in the old law it needs to be discredited.

Jesus' teaching showed compassion and love and he never forced his teaching on anybody else or became angered by sin unless people were using God for self profit. But, then you have the Apostle Paul who's writings and teachings were at times forceful, dictating right and wrong. You also have accounts of God striking down entire cities for immorality. There's rationalization on both sides. IMO, the teachings of Jesus should be held above all but there is definitely material in the Bible that backs a yes vote on Prop 8 and a lot of pastors are preaching that all across the country.

I'm not extraordinarily well-versed in the Old Testament, but doesn't the Bible also classify lots of other things besides homosexuality as "abominations", like rare meat, shellfish, shaving, wearing blended fabrics, and charging and paying interest? It seems like selective quoting to me.
It doesn't seem fair that the Bible, which is so self-contradictory, has and is still being used as a basis for laws in this country. I'll never get it. Separation of Church and State is complete and total bullshit at this point.

Yes, but there are a lot of other Old Testament laws, especially the ten commandments which are still revered to this day. What I'm saying is that both arguments are weak, both ignore certain parts of the Old Testament.

Religion will always be a part of law because most people's moral code come from religious teachings. Would there be a moral code if an idea of gods never existed or would we have figured out right and wrong for ourselves? If there weren't religions would we be in the same place when it comes to gay marriage? A lot of people who aren't religious look at a gay couple and see something inherently wrong.

We can question what the world would be like without religion, but it's there and it has a profound influence on many people's lives.
Most anti-gay arguments that I've heard invoke God or "family values" (a code word for God) in some way. And whether you're religious or not, there is absolutely no excuse for denying a loving couple the right to get married if they choose. None.

But let's just agree to disagree and move on, Gilly. This is supposed to be the Joy thread, after all.

[Gilly]

OK. I was never really disagreeing with you or Trembling Eagle.

[John Junk 2.0]

[Regular Joe]

...and John Junk aren't among them.

How aren't that among them? You don't know what good posters are if you think JJ isn't a funny one.

Junk, Erica, just say the word and I will go apehouse on this guy for you. Artists unite for creative dominion!

[Beth]

I don't know what apehouse is, but I'll go there. For all of you.



Oh and Gilly, I didn't mean we disagreed about gay marriage. Just the idea that most people would still see it as wrong if religion somehow didn't exist.

[Regular Joe]

I don't know what apehouse is, but I'll go there. For all of you.

It's an amalgam of apeshit and shithouse. aka = the most you can go.

[Anonymous 43]

...and John Junk aren't among them.

How aren't that among them? You don't know what good posters are if you think JJ isn't a funny one.

Junk, Erica, just say the word and I will go apehouse on this guy for you. Artists unite for creative dominion!

Joe SixPack, you were one of the people I enjoyed, but now you're off the list too.  By the way, what are you gonna do?  Photoshop me to death, oh great artiste?

[Trembling Eagle]

These people are supposed to be followers of Jesus yet nowhere in his ministry on earth is he recorded as saying ANYTHING about homosexuality.

The most clear prohibition against homosexuality in KJV is in Leviticus where the punishment for laying down with a man like a woman is death (Lev 20:13), also the punishment for children talking back to  their parents is death (Lev but also more clearly Deut 21:18), also it mentions you go to hell for wearing an undergarment made of two types of fabric (check ur skivvies for that cotton-poly blend!)

Eh, just read all of Leviticus it's funny.


http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?t=KJV&x=77&y=3&b=Lev&c=20&v=14#comm/9


As long as Christians are using the bible as their reference for these laws and values why not be completely up front about it? Say you want to kill gays, disobedient children and wizards (Lev 20:7).


I'm ignorant about the LDS texts though perhaps a central part of Jesus mission in the Americas was to teach the Apaches not to have butt sex.