Author Topic: Where are you on the political spectrum?  (Read 19692 times)

Trembling Eagle

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Re: Where are you on the political spectrum?
« Reply #75 on: April 27, 2009, 01:48:08 PM »
The God of philosophers is a far cry from the biblical God, some personal intervening force that actively takes part in human affairs.

False distinction.  Many of the people who posit a "god of philosophers" follow up to describe why and how such a god personally intervenes in human affairs.  Plantiga et al don't describe some impersonal force they choose to name "god" in the way Spinoza might.  They argue that a "god" as traditionally understood is a necessary being.  Their explanations, in fact, hinge on god's being a person with motivations, acting out of goodness, etc.

Then we're back to no proof of such a being. The world is full of pain and suffering the force you describe is either unable or unwilling to intervene in such matters.

yesno

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Re: Where are you on the political spectrum?
« Reply #76 on: April 27, 2009, 02:17:03 PM »
The God of philosophers is a far cry from the biblical God, some personal intervening force that actively takes part in human affairs.

False distinction.  Many of the people who posit a "god of philosophers" follow up to describe why and how such a god personally intervenes in human affairs.  Plantiga et al don't describe some impersonal force they choose to name "god" in the way Spinoza might.  They argue that a "god" as traditionally understood is a necessary being.  Their explanations, in fact, hinge on god's being a person with motivations, acting out of goodness, etc.

Then we're back to no proof of such a being. The world is full of pain and suffering the force you describe is either unable or unwilling to intervene in such matters.

The argument from evil is probably the weakest you can make.  The book I previously mentioned makes short work of it.  Whole chapter on it.  In essence, Swinburne argues that evil must exist to allow even greater good; the amount of good that could exist in a world without evil is less than the amount of good that can exist in a world with evil.  The laws of physics which allow brains also allow tsunamis.  Free will means there must be a possibility of evil.  Etc.  It would be impossible to have one without the other, and apart from some radical Islamic sects, no one believes that god can do the impossible (e.g. make 1+1=3).

Like I said, I'm an atheist, but I'm pretty sick of ignorant Internet talking points.  People thought of those kinds of arguments thousands of years ago.   People in the past weren't stupid, although Cory Doctrow might think otherwise.

The case for atheism is simple:  God isn't necessary to explain anything.  Not existence itself, not consciousness, not morality.  If there are things we don't understand, God might explain them, or so might any number of other things we can dream up.  However, talk of "evidence" misses the point.  Either everything is evidence for god or nothing is.

yesno

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Re: Where are you on the political spectrum?
« Reply #77 on: April 27, 2009, 02:23:52 PM »
Before there was a flying spaghetti monster, there was Russell's teapot.  Here is an analysis of that argument:

http://maverickphilosopher.powerblogs.com/posts/1169851433.shtml

Quote
People like Russell, Dawkins, and Dennett who compare God to a celestial teapot betray by so doing a failure to understand, and engage, the very sense of the theist's assertions. To sum up. (i) God is not a gratuitous posit in that there are many detailed arguments for the existence of God; (ii) God is not a physical being; (iii) God is not a being who simply exists alongside other beings. In all three respects, God is quite unlike a celestial teapot, a lunar unicorn, an invisible hippopotamus, and suchlike concoctions.

Trembling Eagle

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Re: Where are you on the political spectrum?
« Reply #78 on: April 27, 2009, 02:34:19 PM »
The God of philosophers is a far cry from the biblical God, some personal intervening force that actively takes part in human affairs.

False distinction.  Many of the people who posit a "god of philosophers" follow up to describe why and how such a god personally intervenes in human affairs.  Plantiga et al don't describe some impersonal force they choose to name "god" in the way Spinoza might.  They argue that a "god" as traditionally understood is a necessary being.  Their explanations, in fact, hinge on god's being a person with motivations, acting out of goodness, etc.

Then we're back to no proof of such a being. The world is full of pain and suffering the force you describe is either unable or unwilling to intervene in such matters.

The argument from evil is probably the weakest you can make.  The book I previously mentioned makes short work of it.  Whole chapter on it.  In essence, Swinburne argues that evil must exist to allow even greater good; the amount of good that could exist in a world without evil is less than the amount of good that can exist in a world with evil.  The laws of physics which allow brains also allow tsunamis.  Free will means there must be a possibility of evil.  Etc.  It would be impossible to have one without the other, and apart from some radical Islamic sects, no one believes that god can do the impossible (e.g. make 1+1=3).

Like I said, I'm an atheist, but I'm pretty sick of ignorant Internet talking points.  People thought of those kinds of arguments thousands of years ago.   People in the past weren't stupid, although Cory Doctrow might think otherwise.

The case for atheism is simple:  God isn't necessary to explain anything.  Not existence itself, not consciousness, not morality.  If there are things we don't understand, God might explain them, or so might any number of other things we can dream up.  However, talk of "evidence" misses the point.  Either everything is evidence for god or nothing is.

So the God you're arguing for now is akin to the person who sets fires so he can come to the rescue or the mothers that make their children sick so they can nurse them. Then with the 1+1 thing you have a God that can't make a rock so heavy even he can't lift it, in other words a being limited by the physics and rules of the natural/observable universe. I've never heard religious folks describe him as such.

yesno

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Re: Where are you on the political spectrum?
« Reply #79 on: April 27, 2009, 02:50:23 PM »
The free will argument (that if you want free will, you have to have the possibility of evil and there's nothing god can do to get rid of evil without getting rid of free will) seems pretty damn solid to me, and not at all like Münchausen syndrome by proxy.

Quote from: Milton
I made him just and right,
Sufficient to have stood, though free to fall.
Such I created all th' Ethereal Powers
And Spirits, both them who stood & them who faild;
Freely they stood who stood, and fell who fell.
Not free, what proof could they have givn sincere
Of true allegiance, constant Faith or Love,
Where onely what they needs must do, appeard,
Not what they would? what praise could they receive?
What pleasure I from such obedience paid,
When Will and Reason (Reason also is choice)
Useless and vain, of freedom both despoild,
Made passive both, had servd necessitie,
Not mee.

I've never heard religious folks describe him as such.

Pretty much the entire Western religious tradition describes God as incapable of logical impossibilities.  Crack Aquinas much?

Trembling Eagle

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Re: Where are you on the political spectrum?
« Reply #80 on: April 27, 2009, 02:55:26 PM »
The free will argument (that if you want free will, you have to have the possibility of evil and there's nothing god can do to get rid of evil without getting rid of free will) seems pretty damn solid to me, and not at all like Münchausen syndrome by proxy.

Quote from: Milton
I made him just and right,
Sufficient to have stood, though free to fall.
Such I created all th' Ethereal Powers
And Spirits, both them who stood & them who faild;
Freely they stood who stood, and fell who fell.
Not free, what proof could they have givn sincere
Of true allegiance, constant Faith or Love,
Where onely what they needs must do, appeard,
Not what they would? what praise could they receive?
What pleasure I from such obedience paid,
When Will and Reason (Reason also is choice)
Useless and vain, of freedom both despoild,
Made passive both, had servd necessitie,
Not mee.

I've never heard religious folks describe him as such.

Pretty much the entire Western religious tradition describes God as incapable of logical impossibilities.  Crack Aquinas much?

ha.

Sarah

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Re: Where are you on the political spectrum?
« Reply #81 on: April 27, 2009, 05:32:52 PM »
I like the notion that God suffers from Munchausen by proxy syndrome.

Fido

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Re: Where are you on the political spectrum?
« Reply #82 on: April 30, 2009, 10:03:25 PM »


I don't know what I did wrong to not make it into the top left corner.  Maybe I'm too soft on degenerate art.

Hey Grote, what did you do to get that result? Ask yourself, "What would Stalin do?"

I'm impressed. I wouldn't have had a clue how to answer those questions to get that kind of result. I can imagine how to get into the upper right corner. I'd ask myself, what would cousin Laura do?

Shaggy 2 Grote

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Re: Where are you on the political spectrum?
« Reply #83 on: April 30, 2009, 10:11:08 PM »


I don't know what I did wrong to not make it into the top left corner.  Maybe I'm too soft on degenerate art.

Hey Grote, what did you do to get that result? Ask yourself, "What would Stalin do?"

I'm impressed. I wouldn't have had a clue how to answer those questions to get that kind of result. I can imagine how to get into the upper right corner. I'd ask myself, what would cousin Laura do?

I just followed my heart.
Oh, good heavens. I didn’t realize. I send my condolences out to the rest of the O’Connor family.

yesno

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Re: Where are you on the political spectrum?
« Reply #84 on: April 30, 2009, 10:36:59 PM »

Shaggy 2 Grote

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Re: Where are you on the political spectrum?
« Reply #85 on: May 01, 2009, 11:53:13 AM »
Shit, I guess this means Yesno is gonna purge me.
Oh, good heavens. I didn’t realize. I send my condolences out to the rest of the O’Connor family.

yesno

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Re: Where are you on the political spectrum?
« Reply #86 on: May 01, 2009, 01:45:41 PM »
Shit, I guess this means Yesno is gonna purge me.

No, I just have a nice camp out in the country to take you to.  You're lucky you don't wear glasses.

dave from knoxville

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Re: Where are you on the political spectrum?
« Reply #87 on: May 02, 2009, 03:03:52 AM »
Please don't throw me in the pokey for 40 years because of what I believe. I have no power! I am of no danger to your established racist social hierarchy!



Economic -5.5
Social -3.79

And yet I am a church-going Southerner! It boggles

dave from knoxville

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Re: Where are you on the political spectrum?
« Reply #88 on: May 02, 2009, 03:12:33 AM »
I'm at 13% - still more consistent than the average slob!



I am 27% tense, but I feel more like 127%

dave from knoxville

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Re: Where are you on the political spectrum?
« Reply #89 on: May 02, 2009, 03:18:00 AM »
Oh, bummer, is my insupportable belief in a God gonna get me thrown under a bus? I bet Bonnie gets to live, because she's cute. Damn inconsistent non-believers. At least agree to kill us all!