9/11 question

[Pastor Josh]

Sleepyjack, as for the rest of your post, I couldn't agree more.  But I'm talking about the people who aren't doing it with respect and perspective but instead using it to instill fear of the Other and to promote war and violence, often in Jesus' name.

[kittykittymeowmixhead]

I'll be memorializing by attending the Super Furry Animals show. Maybe there will be a moment of silence.

[erika]

Also notice how those same people will not likely give two shits when Katrina's anniversary swings 'round.

This sounded like lumping folks together to me.

I remember reading an article about how England responded to the blitz.  Life went on like normal.  A nightclub in a bombed neighborhood will still be open as long as it had a roof.  We, on the other hand, decide it's acceptable to remove our shoes before a flight.

And this, most certainly, sounded like a scolding for not responding the way folks did in England after a huge bombing as part of a war.

I don't agree with the patriot act, the war that followed, or the media's and government's fear mongering after the fact. 9-11 has been misused in so many ways. But to say that a day of remembrance is not in order... is just wrong. It's not the only day in our history that deserves one, but it was one of the largest civilian tragedies of our lifetime. Or at least mine.

[fonpr]

"(It) was the largest civilian tragedy of our lifetime. Or at least mine."

How many civilians in Iraq have died since 9/11?

No one seems to be remembering that today.  Or maybe that's not a tragedy.

Nor why the towers were targeted in the first place.  It wasn't because we are were "free".  Sweden wasn't attacked.


Our current policies make it so we remain targets.


What are we being told to remember?

[Pastor Josh]

As for the first one, I didn't say that.

As for the second one, it wasn't scolding.  I was just comparing.  The British are responding to the war on terror at least as bad as we are today.

And finally, I never said that a day of remembrance is not in order!  Andrew asked if anyone really wanted to see that footage again.  My response is that, yes, there are people who want to see that footage again, and in my experience, here is why a lot of them want to see it again.  

Erika, you read an awful lot into what I was saying that I don't, on rereading, think is there.  Commemorate 9-11 however you want.  I never said anyone shouldn't.  But my point, my only point, throughout this entire topic, is that some leaders have used 9-11 in shameful, exploitative ways, and that in a lot of ways Americans are celebrating themselves as victims, whether it's 9-11 or "the liberals are trying to take away my Jesus" or "Christians are oppressing me because I'm a non-believer".  Americans are the oppressors in most instances in this world, and it is very dangerous for oppressors to start calling themselves victims.  9-11 feeds a lot of that, but it is certainly not the cause.  I'm worried about where we're headed.

That being said, I will once again reiterate, I do not believe that 9-11 was insignificant.  I am not calling anyone a baby for still being in pain over it.  I do not think we should just forget about it.  It was a tragic, world-changing event.  I think it is important to appropriately remember our national tragedies.  My point is that so many of the attempts to honor this one are inappropriate.  That's all.  No blaming, no scolding, no condemning.  Just pointing something out that worries me.

[erika]

Josh, point taken. The blitz thing still rubs me the wrong way... but I guess I'm just not understanding the significance. Don't worry about it.

Fredricks, I didn't mean to discount the war. Rereading my post I can see that I did that. But I did say I don't support the war. It's despicable and was started on false pretenses... its ties to 9-11 were just LIES. But, I believe that war would have happened at some point anyway, as long as George Bush was president. He, Cheney and Rumsfeld would have found some way to get their paws into Iraq one way or another.

And you can remember whatever the fuck you want, really. I'm going to remember the people that died in their offices or on the planes. I'll leave the other stuff for another day.

[Pastor Josh]

Sounds like a good place to stop.  I drink to your very good health, Erika.

[Keith Whitener]

What are we being told to remember?

What are we remembering, how, and why. Similarly, what did people learn from 9/11?

[B_Buster]

It was one of the strangest days of my life. I was working on 3rd Ave. and 40th St. at the time, so I was out of harm's way. There weren't any televisions available in my office, so I listened in disbelief as the events unfolded on WBAI (the super liberal radio station that Spike occasionally calls--I should also say that some of the commentators were inappropriately gleeful for some reason that day). I also remember my supervisor treating our department to deli takeout for lunch (the first and last time that ever happened). We were allowed to leave work, but I stayed the entire day because there was no way for me to get back to NJ. My brother was subletting a friend's apartment on 9th Ave. in the 50s, so I walked over there. By that time, midtown Manhattan was eerily quiet. There was no traffic and hardly anyone on the sidewalks as I made my way across town. The first sign of life I saw was when I passed the Port Authority building which was surrounded by stranded people waiting for word that the Lincoln Tunnel had reopened. When I got to 9th Ave. the bars were overflowing with people who had gotten an early start. At my brother's place things were pretty much the same. My brother worked in lower Manhattan and had a perfect view of the second plane hitting the tower. He and a couple stranded co-workers had returned to his apartment to get drunk and curse at the television which I commenced doing as well (this was where I first saw the televised images of the attack). Not much later, I learned that the PATH had reopened and I walked down to the 33rd St. station. When I connected with the Light Rail in Jersey City, there was only one other passenger on the train with me. We didn't speak. We both just wanted to get home.

[yesno]

My day was pretty similar to Trembling Eagle's, but that's usually the case.

(Also I was in the National Guard at the time and subsequent events forced me to leave college and go putz around an Army base for about a year and a half.  Made me appreciate how easy and non-boring college is when I got back. You have no idea how easy the military was for me, compared with others in the Guard, and I'm both relieved and a little guilty over it, even though it's not something I had any control over.  I mean, while people were dying I was doing paperwork and driving a van around.  My wife's sister is in the Army and she's going to Afghanistan right now: she's already been there, as well as Iraq.)

[nec13]

That's quite a story, Mike. I can't possibly imagine what it was like to actually live through it.

I remember the events of 9/11 quite vividly. It was the third week of my senior year in high school. I was in my first period psychology class when a student from another class across the hall came into our room and informed us of a huge fire in one of the towers of the WTC. I was somewhat stunned, but because I didn't really have any further information, I wasn't thinking the worst at that point. And so class resumed. Several minutes later, we were told that a plane had hit the other tower. That's when we all knew that something terrible had happened. A number of us went to a classroom across the hall, where a teacher had the television tuned to NBC. It was at that point that they broke the news that Flight 93 crashed in Shanksville. We also found out that a plane had hit the Pentagon. There were also rumors (that later turned out to be false) that a bomb had gone off at the State Department. It was all just absolutely frightening. The image that haunts me the most was watching both towers collapse. There were probably 40 or 50 of us in the classroom at the time and we were all just stunned. Watching three thousand people die before your eyes, there are just no words.

Like BTB, I was just on auto that day. I couldn't fathom that this had actually taken place. I recall leaving school around noon, going home and watching CNN. I cannot recall ever being more scared in my life. Just seeing the video of both towers collapsing was absolutely gut-wrenching. I tuned into a local talk radio station and listened to people vent. It was an amalgam of emotions; anger, fear, and deep sorrow. And although it may sound trite, I think the prevailing sentiment was that we had lost our innocence and our innate sense of security.

Beyond that I don't really know what else to say.

Sorry for the long-winded post.

[fonpr]

 But, I believe that war would have happened at some point anyway, as long as George Bush was president. He, Cheney and Rumsfeld would have found some way to get their paws into Iraq one way or another.

I believe what say is true, Erika.  But I must add: Only because Ford pardoned Nixon.












If he hadn't

Cheney wouldn't have thought known he could get away with breaking the law (in public).




Where is Cheney now?

All over T.V. lying away.




While the truth sits in a corner gathering dust.





I miss George Carlin.

[HaroldBlvd]

9/11 could have been prevented if Bush had heeded the warnings of his terrorism adviser Richard Clark. If he had actually read that presidential press briefing of Aug 8 entitled "Bin Laden determined to attack in the United States. If his administration had listened to the FBI agents who reported on suspicious characters that were learning how to fly but not to land jet airliners in flight schools in Florida.

It makes me sick every time Cheney gets on the TV and says "9/11 happened and everything changed. We kept America safe after that."
He is never challenged. 9/11 did not just happen. 9/11 occurred on  his watch yet no one ever has the guts to point that out to him to his face.

I don't know about all the theories about why those tower came down. But there are enough facts to say that the Bush administration did nothing to prevent 9/11 and they could have. One day those thugs will have to answer for that.

[chrisfoll577]

Fredericks' posts in this thread are like a cross between e. e. cummings, Howard Zinn, and the rants of a some guy at a bus station.

[fonpr]

Fredericks' posts in this thread are like a cross between e. e. cummings, Howard Zinn, and the rants of a some guy at a bus station.

Three of my favorite thinkers.