'The Visitors' - great ABBA album or best ABBA album?

[Tom Scharpling]

What's an example of an imperfectly crafted song, as opposed to one that just doesn't work for you?

Royal Trux, the Frogs, A WIZARD/A TRUE STAR, Sebadoh/Sentridoh, any of of Robert Pollard's 1000-plus too short classics, JESUS URGE SUPERSTAR, any Volcano Suns, DUSK AT CUBIST CASTLE, anything on SMILEY SMILE that's not "Good Vibrations or "Heroes and Villains", plenty of Television Personalities and late 70s/early 80s UK DIY, any Strapping Fieldhands, SORRY MA..., most Oblivians songs written by Greg, the Swell Maps.

[cavorting with nudists]

Hmmm...thanks. Turns out I prefer imperfectly crafted songs. More human, maybe.

[buffcoat]

Very similar to my love for ELO, even though English was ostensibly Lynne's first language.

I thought he only spoke Prog.

You consider ELO prog?

I'm sorry, I thought we were talking about BTO.

[jbissell]

I love ABBA without one shred of irony or sarcasm!

I got really into them in high school and so many of my friends refused to believe that I genuinely liked the music. I find that I still encounter people who think it's some kind of put on, and for all the reasons Tom outlined in his post, I just don't get it.

[Martin]

The finest our nation has to offer.

[nec13]

I love ABBA without one shred of irony or sarcasm!

I got really into them in high school and so many of my friends refused to believe that I genuinely liked the music. I find that I still encounter people who think it's some kind of put on, and for all the reasons Tom outlined in his post, I just don't get it.

I guess there's a belief amongst some music listeners that poppy, sugary music-the kind which ABBA used to make-somehow lacks artistic merit. This is probably why they don't get the respect they deserve.

As far as I'm concerned, I like ABBA for the same reason I like Steely Dan...because they made catchy, well-written, well-composed songs. And I say without a trace of irony or insincerity. For me, ABBA holds up MUCH better than say, Joy Division.

[cavorting with nudists]

But ya know, it's possible to like catchy, well-written, well-composed songs and still not think ABBA made them.

Tom says their lyrics achieved "universality," but is something like this (picked basically at random) universal or is it just kind of conventional and bland?:

If you change your mind, I'm the first in line
Honey I'm still free take a chance on me
If you need me, let me know, gonna be around
If you've got no place to go, if you're feeling down

If you're all alone when the pretty birds have flown
Honey I'm still free take a chance on me
Gonna do my very best and it ain't no lie
If you put me to the test, if you let me try

[nec13]

But ya know, it's possible to like catchy, well-written, well-composed songs and still not think ABBA made them.

Tom says their lyrics achieved "universality," but is something like this (picked basically at random) universal or is it just kind of conventional and bland?:

If you change your mind, I'm the first in line
Honey I'm still free take a chance on me
If you need me, let me know, gonna be around
If you've got no place to go, if you're feeling down

If you're all alone when the pretty birds have flown
Honey I'm still free take a chance on me
Gonna do my very best and it ain't no lie
If you put me to the test, if you let me try

I don't begrudge you for disliking ABBA. You're entitled to your opinion. I'm not trying to convince you to like them. I'm just giving you the reasons why I happen to enjoy their music.

WRT to your second point: If I want lyrical profundity, then I'll listen to Neil Young or Leonard Cohen. ABBA's appeal, at least for me, has little to do with the lyrical content of their songs. It's about the music itself. The melodies, the vocal arrangements, the instrumentation...those are the things that made ABBA great, IMO.

[cavorting with nudists]

I don't begrudge you for disliking ABBA.

I know you don't.  I was just pushing back against the idea that disliking ABBA must equate to a condescending attitude toward poppiness (it's true that sugariness I can do without.)

[cavorting with nudists]

And as for the lyrics: I know the old saw about critics (of which I am not one) over-valuing lyrics, but it seems to me that if you praise a song for being well-written, well, lyrics are part of songwriting and you should be able to say something good about them. Tom tried, with "universal," but I don't see that it stands up--or, rather, that it means anything beyond "supremely unchallenging."

[Tom Scharpling]

And as for the lyrics: I know the old saw about critics (of which I am not one) over-valuing lyrics, but it seems to me that if you praise a song for being well-written, well, lyrics are part of songwriting and you should be able to say something good about them. Tom tried, with "universal," but I don't see that it stands up--or, rather, that it means anything beyond "supremely unchallenging."

What's the endgame here? To try to break down why you think ABBA sucks so that you can spoil the party for others? You hate them - totally your choice, totally your right. But give it a rest - if it's not working for you, it's not working for you. Listen to something else you love and let this one go.

[Shaggy 2 Grote]

Yeah, I have no problem with people hating ABBA, Michael Jackson, Lady Gaga, The Archies, The Monkees, or any other pop music I love (for that matter, I don't care if people hate Captain Beefheart, Tom Waits, or Fluxus, or Minor Threat, or anything else I like). What I don't like is (1) the insistence that there is some objective aesthetic measure that makes one band suck and another one good, and the absolute insistence on this, as if we're living in 18th century Europe or something, and (2) Rockism (a term I've seen used by DJ/Rupture and Simon Reynolds, among others), which is a kind of sexism/racism/homophobia/elitism, even though it's commonly embodied by liberal music writers who claim to be none of the above. A close cousin to both the pretentious cluelessness of 70s RS and the meathead "disco sucks" stuff that Tom mentioned above, it exclusively takes rock seriously (especially pseudo-intellectual stuff like Roger Waters Pink Floyd or Jackson Browne, or even smart pop like Elvis Costello*). The work that gets dismissed as fluff just happens to be for ethnic minorities, women, gays, or vacationing proles who just don't want to think about their pop.

I'm not accusing anyone who doesn't like ABBA of being sexist or whatever, but taste is as much socially defined as it is aesthetically defined, and pop music criticism has been dominated by straight white dudes straining to get it taken seriously as an art form right from the start. Of course it reflects their particular worldview.

Suggestions for further reading: http://www.scharplingandwurster.com/?p=24 (key quote: "Foreigner –“Feels Like the First Time”: Now THIS is what the new rock and roll should sound like. The guitar is loud and dirty but also tasteful. And this guy can sing. Hey, Clash…school’s in session…and Foreigner is your teacher!"). Also Carl Wilson's 33 1/3 book on Celine Dion. And the Baffler article about when Prince got violently heckled opening up for the Rolling Stones, which I can't find online but which is great. Also see Masterofsparks' and Buffcoat's defenses of Kiss, Bob Seger, and ZZ Top on these boards, all of which I found convincing and -- after listening to the music again -- utterly correct. I also think EFD's show is (among other things) a compendium of fantastic 80s music I had thoughtlessly dismissed -- who would have thunk that Jefferson Starship's "Jane" was such a great tune? The list goes on and on.

Finally, since when is anyone judging rock/pop based on lyrics? For every Dylan, Pollard, or Jay-Z there's a dozen Led Zeppelins or Rolling Stoneses or Ramoneses. Or there's all of heavy metal, which (in my opinion) is at its best when it's stupid and which gets more off-putting the more intelligent the lyrics and musicianship get. Lyrics are an important part of songwriting, but they're not the only part.





*I like Elvis Costello and have affection for Roger Waters even though he sometimes makes me embarrassed for both him and my 16-year-old self. And I acknowledge that it's all a mug's game; dismissing mid-70s AOR as bloated white guy rock is no more intellectually valid than dismissing ABBA as fluff. But there you go.   

[cavorting with nudists]

Um, Tom told me to put a sock in it and I will, but this is apparently directed straight at me and so I will respond:

Finally, since when is anyone judging rock/pop based on lyrics?. . . Lyrics are an important part of songwriting, but they're not the only part.

What part of the following quote by me seems to imply that lyrics are the "only" part?:

it seems to me that if you praise a song for being well-written, well, lyrics are part of songwriting and you should be able to say something good about them.

...and in fact, if challenged to I could say plenty of good things about the lyrics of the Ramones and Rolling Stones. In the present context, ABBA's lyrics were brought up by Tom, who praised them, and I disagreed that they deserved such praise.  That's not judging based solely on lyrics.

[dave from knoxville]

I get the feeling cavorting with nudists is an unhappy person. I also have no doubt that he is formulating his argument about why it's wrong for me to hold this opinion.

Let it go, dude. Like what you like, and allow others the same privilege. I would sincerely be interested in what you like, and why you recommend it.

[cavorting with nudists]

Unnecessary post, dfk.  I announced my intention to hang it up as Tom asked, and will do so unless I keep getting directly addressed. Nothing in my last post continues to beat the anti-ABBA drum, it merely objects to being misrepresented.