FOT Forum
FOT Community => General Discussion => Topic started by: dave from knoxville on December 14, 2007, 10:20:33 PM
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I wrote a blog post last year about my attempt to classify the 100 greatest artists of the 21st century. You can review the criteria here
http://gaughin.edublogs.org/2006/12/09/reading-the-musical-zeitgeist/ (http://gaughin.edublogs.org/2006/12/09/reading-the-musical-zeitgeist/)
I am going to try to update that list every year in December. Here’s the updated list from 1 through 100, along with each artist’s position on the chart from last year.
Apologies in advance to “The Kid.”
http://gaughin.edublogs.org/2007/12/14/re-adjusting-the-zeitgeist/ (http://gaughin.edublogs.org/2007/12/14/re-adjusting-the-zeitgeist/)
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Seriously, I'm not even a Best Show/Scharpling apologist. I will never get the critical love for Tom Waits.
Anyway, those are some interesting choices. I disagree with most of them (at least the order) but it's your super-caller world.
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I would seriously be interested in finding out about your formula. Care to explain a little?
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Dually fascinating and infuriating, just the way a list of this nature should be.
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Dave is this straight up aggregation or are reviewers weighted?
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Straight up aggregation. Every month I scan Uncut, Mojo, and Paste. Some months, when it's available to me, I include Rolling Stone, Spin, and Q. I take every review that's listed on metacritic.com. I average all of those together, giving extra weight to metacritic according to the number of reviews listed there.
The average recording gets a score of around 71. An artist releases a disk. Say it's a an 80. They get 9 points, equal to the number of points that recording is above the average. Artist 2, say Kid Rock, releases a CD that averages, say, 12. He gets -59 points. I add these points together for all of the artists releases since Jan 1, 2000, and list them in descending order.
Please note, this is REPORTAGE, and not my personal opinion. For instance, while I don't hate Tom Waits, I don't own any of his recordings. So this is like an uber-critic listing of which artists get most favorably reviewed. It's not scientific, authoritative, or even necessary. It's just part of what I do in my part-time gig as OCD man.
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my beloved Monsterists are at number 6 so I'm not frowning on TN today.
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Seriously, I'm not even a Best Show/Scharpling apologist. I will never get the critical love for Tom Waits.
It's that he writes brilliant songs: Jersey Girl, Way Down in the Hole, Hang Down Your Head. The haters get tripped up by the fact that the brilliant songs are often lost in a haze of weird klinking klonking.
To use one of my examples-- Hang Down Your Head from Rain Dogs. I just don't see how you could not like songs like that. Oh well.
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Just in case anybody's still interested, here's the worst 20 under that scheme.
1831) Enya 1832) Juliana Hatfield 1833) Mariah Carey 1834) Robbie Williams 1835) Mudvayne 1836) Liz Phair 1837) Duran Duran 1838) Stereophonics 1839) Dirty Vegas 1840) Everclear 1841) Live 1842) Paul Oakenfield 1843) Kevin Federline 1844) Athlete 1845) Alanis Morrisette 1846) Backstreet Boys 1847) Limp Biskit 1848) Ja Rule 1849) Staind 1850) Jennifer Lopez
You can tell that my opinion is not reflected in the selections, because Buck Dharma does not appear in the top 100.
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David Holmes? really? what did he even do this decade besides the Ocean's 11-13 soundtracks, and maybe 1 or 2 albums that nobody talks about? the only album i have by him is Let's Get Killed, which is from 10 years ago. it's really good but.... wha?
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Dave, have you ever looked at the site acclaimedmusic.net? Seems like it would be right up your alley.
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Seriously, I'm not even a Best Show/Scharpling apologist. I will never get the critical love for Tom Waits.
It's that he writes brilliant songs: Jersey Girl, Way Down in the Hole, Hang Down Your Head. The haters get tripped up by the fact that the brilliant songs are often lost in a haze of weird klinking klonking.
To use one of my examples-- Hang Down Your Head from Rain Dogs. I just don't see how you could not like songs like that. Oh well.
I like the klinking klonking - Real Gone is my favorite Waits record. I think the problem most people have with him is either the voice or his public persona; I remember Tom not liking that this millionaire songwriter was affecting being poor to sell records, which I understand, but it doesn't bother me nearly as much. I mean, they're only songs. Someone's gotta write 'em. And I agree with you - many of his songs are great, but I prefer the noisy ones: "All Stripped Down", "Hoist That Rag", etc.
What I don't like about Tom Waits is his 70s shtick, where he portrayed himself to be the "poet of the barroom," or something like that. That stuff (everything pre-Swordfishtrombones) really makes me cringe, aside from a handful of songs. The best line on Tom Waits during this period belonged to Martin Mull on Fernwood Tonight: as Waits sits down to be interviewed, Mull says, "Take a load off your act." Burn!
So, bottom line: Hobos > Drunks, although we all knew this already.
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David Holmes? really? what did he even do this decade besides the Ocean's 11-13 soundtracks, and maybe 1 or 2 albums that nobody talks about? the only album i have by him is Let's Get Killed, which is from 10 years ago. it's really good but.... wha?
I just report the news, I don't create it
http://wc03.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=A2vjeea144xs7
http://uk.launch.yahoo.com/l_reviews_a/23928.html
http://www.popmatters.com/music/reviews/soundtracks/soundtrack-oceanseleven.shtml
http://arts.guardian.co.uk/reviews/story/0,11712,1384474,00.html
http://tinyurl.com/yqtj4u
So yah, sounds pretty good. Of course, I don't listen to the stuff. I don't know David Holmes from John Holmes. I don't know David Holmes from Larry Holmes. I don't know David Holmes from Better Holmes and Gardens. I don't know David Holmes from Stock Holmes.
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Dave, have you ever looked at the site acclaimedmusic.net? Seems like it would be right up your alley.
I do indeed love this site.
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(http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff214/forrestsimmons/daveh.jpg)
I had no idea the guy who lost a VJ contest to Jesse Camp was so championed by the critics.
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Edit: point clarified, I had only read the re-dux link.
Here's two guys making fantastic music in this new century:
Spencer P. Jones--he's released solid solo material after a long, storied career in Australia (The Johnnys, Hell To Pay, Beasts Of Bourbon, playing guitar for Paul Kelly). Look for "Fugitive Songs" ('07 release), "Immolation & Ameliorations", "Rumour Of Death", and "Fait Accompli".
Ike Reilly--another guy who's been around forever, albeit in Chicago. He's done quiet, introspective stuff where it seems he's communicating one-on-one with the listener. He's done raucous kick-ass rock-and-roll, where at times his voice is a dead ringer for Dylan, where he deftly phrases the songs to a hip-hop beat, or where the band is just full-throttle guitars, bass, and drum. His debut "Salesmen and Racists" from 2000, may be my favorite album of the decade. The followup, "Sparkle in the Finish" is just as good. "Junkie Faithful" is one of the more introspective efforts, with a lot of blues thrown into the mix--it's devastating at times, especially the opener "22 Hours Of Darkness" and "Heroin". "We Belong To The Staggering Evening" came out this year, and would hold the top spot were I to compile a list.
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The first link listed explains specifically why those old fogies are on the list.
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Did my eyes deceive me, or did I see The Clash, Led Zeppelin, and Talking Heads on the list?
Serious?
Straight re-releases are not included in this calculation, but expanded re-releases are, which explains the presence of Talking Heads and The Clash, even though those artists are not likely to produce any more new music later in the 21st century. Likewise, discs made up exclusively of previously unreleased material do get treated like “new” discs, which is how Led Zeppelin snuck in.
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Ahh, my bad, I only read the re-dux link. I'm kind of an obnoxious house-guest when it comes to lists...I generally eschew all pleasantries/introductions and go straight to the titles. That said, in hindsight, "Most Important" is a bit of a misnomer..."Critically Regarded" or "Highly Rated" may be more appropriate.
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So, what Josh said.
I have no illusions that these are the greatest artists; they are simply the most favorably reviewed artists (but that's quite a mouthful, so I settled on significant, I think.)
I always believed that the greatest artists, and for sure the greatest performances ever were probably performed in tiny basements in front of an uncaring audience too blasted to even understand what they were a part of.
Sort of like Will Hunting's math. Though I realize that's fiction. Because Robin Williams can not exist in any consistent real world, can he?
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I had no idea the guy who lost a VJ contest to Jesse Camp was so championed by the critics.
wrong David Holmes.
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David Holmes? really? what did he even do this decade besides the Ocean's 11-13 soundtracks, and maybe 1 or 2 albums that nobody talks about? the only album i have by him is Let's Get Killed, which is from 10 years ago. it's really good but.... wha?
I just report the news, I don't create it
http://wc03.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=A2vjeea144xs7
http://uk.launch.yahoo.com/l_reviews_a/23928.html
http://www.popmatters.com/music/reviews/soundtracks/soundtrack-oceanseleven.shtml
http://arts.guardian.co.uk/reviews/story/0,11712,1384474,00.html
http://tinyurl.com/yqtj4u
So yah, sounds pretty good. Of course, I don't listen to the stuff. I don't know David Holmes from John Holmes. I don't know David Holmes from Larry Holmes. I don't know David Holmes from Better Holmes and Gardens. I don't know David Holmes from Stock Holmes.
i'm not saying his music is bad or anything... i'm just surprised to see him so high on the list. i'm guessing he's up there mostly for his soundtracks then, combined with his albums/mixes. i mean, he's certainly not all that popular. i guess he's just more prolific than i thought he was, and i guess somehow his albums/soundtracks get reviewed a lot, and that most of the reviews end up being really positive. i mean, tom waits is obviously a "critic's darling" so to speak, so you'd expect him to be in this type of list, right?
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Bow Down to the Exit Sign is my fave David Holmes record. He's great, but I too was surprised to see him that high up the rankings.
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Here's the 2008 update, with possibly even more Holmesian controversy. Following the release of this year's amazing "The Holy Pictures", he's moved into first place.
Every year around this time I update my list of the most important musical artists of the new millenium. This is based strictly on the aggregate quality of recordings released for the first time during or since 2000, according to an arcane combination of my opinion and input from over a dozen regular music writers whose tastes I respect even if I don’t necessarily agree. This means that my voice is in here, but this is by no means a list I would come up with on my own (you don’t see Kate Bush at the top, do you?)
Occasionally that means an expanded re-release, or previously unreleased recording gets included, spitting artists who have not recorded in years onto the list. I don’t care; it’s limited, and for the most part those recordings are better than most of the crap being sprayed out into the ether. Here goes the updated list, as of December 14, 2008. The number following the artist’s name represents the chart position at this time last year.
1) David Holmes - 5 (Not many people know this guy, my most significant artist of the new century, but he’s released over 60 tracks with very few duds, and this year’s album, The Holy Pictures, was of the consistent high quality he displayed in the first half of the decade. He’s basically a laptop/dance/what we used to call techno sort of guy.)
2) Tom Waits - 1
3) Spoon - 3
4) Super Furry Animals - 6
5) Bob Dylan - 21
6) The White Stripes - 4
7) Lambchop - 9
8) Drive By Truckers - 28
9) Low - 7
10) The Hold Steady - 38
11) Sigur Ros - 27
12) Sufjan Stevens - 13
13) Radiohead - 8
14) Nick Cave - 56
15) Sleater Kenney - 10
16) Bonnie Prince Billy - 39
17) LCD Soundsystem - 11
18) Outkast - 14
19) Dizzee Rascal - 17
20) Basement Jaxx - 15
21) The New Pornographers - 16
22) Of Montreal - 18
23) Iron and Wine - 2
24) TV on the Radio - 79
25) Elbow - 51
26) Four Tet - 32
27) Ghostface Killah - 12
28) Kanye West - 30
29) Wilco - 19
30) Elliott Smith - 20
31) The Clash - 61
32) Animal Collective - 45
33) PJ Harvey - 23
34) Arab Strap - 26
35) Missy Elliott - 31
36) My Morning Jacket - 29
37) Nas - 50
38) The Roots - 66
39) Bruce Springsteen - 33
40) Blur - 34
41) Bjork - 36
42) Ron Sexsmith - 25
43) The Arcade Fire - 40
44) The Decemberists - 37
45) Mogwai - 24
46) Talking Heads - 41
47) Okkervil River - 91
48) Devandra Banhart - 43
49) Oneida - 60
50) MIA - 44
51) Neko Case - 46
52) Dungen - 95
53) The Magnetic Fields - 98
54) Sam Phillips - new (although I have been enjoying her stuff from all the way back when she still called herself Leslie; the new album’s fantastic, like if Marlene Dietrich grew up in the Appalachians.)
55) Destroyer - new (back in after sitting out one year)
56) The Flaming Lips - 52
57) J Dilla - 48
58) The National - 49
59) Yo La Tengo - new
60) Stephen Malkmus - 82
61) Matmos - new
62) The Streets - 22
63) The Go Betweens - 53
64) The Pernice Brothers - 64
65) Broadcast - 55
66) Cat Power - 58
67) Xiu Xiu - 84
68) Bill Frisell - 57
69) Blood Brothers - 42
70) Jay Z - 62
71) Beck - new
72) British Sea Power - new
73) Queens of the Stone Age - 65
74) The Fall - new
75) Damien Jurado - 93
76) The Mendoza Line - 67
77) Smog - 68
78) System of a Down - 69
79) Books - 70
80) Franz Ferdinand - 71
81) Hayden - 73
82) M Ward - 74
83) Les Savy Fav - 47
84) Aimee Mann - new
85) Lucinda Williams - 85
86) David Kilgour - 75
87) Lightning Bolt - 76
88) Los Lobos - 77
89) Candi Staton - 78
90) Built to Spill - 72
91) The Clientele - 80
92) The Constantines - new
93) Ted FOT Leo - 81
94) Murs - new
95) Richard Thompson - 83
96) Belle and Sebastian - new
97) Led Zeppelin - 86
98) Loretta Lynn - 87
99) Fennesz - new
100) Junior Boys - 89
Artists who fell out of favor with the collected wisdom of hipster music critics (by falling out of the top 100) include the following.
Boards of Canada, was formerly 35th!
Wire, was 54
NERD, 59
OOIOO, 63
Vince Gill, 88
Nick Lowe, 90
Solomon Burke, 92
Steve Earle, 94
Richard Hawley, 96
Hood, 97
The Shins, 99
Broken Social Scene, 100
Write! Perform! Record! Release!
http://gaughin.edublogs.org/2008/12/19/the-new-music-millenium-2008-update/
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How does your own opinion weigh in? Your description from last year doesn't say anything about that.
I wonder if an objective-ish weighting system would be possible. For example, by starting from Metacritic's ratings, but giving more weight to sources that, over all the ratings, tend to give a review a score that is close to the median.
A good computer program would be to allow the user to give different weights to different sources in the proportion that he tends to agree with them. Additionally, I bet that if you were able to see the exact date different reviews are published, you'd be able to see that certain publications have a disproportionate effect on later ones, and that outlier scores tend to decrease.
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1) David Holmes - 5 (Not many people know this guy, my most significant artist of the new century, but he’s released over 60 tracks with very few duds, and this year’s album, The Holy Pictures, was of the consistent high quality he displayed in the first half of the decade. He’s basically a laptop/dance/what we used to call techno sort of guy.)
2) Tom Waits - 1
3) Spoony - 3
Jesus. FINALLY some recognition. How many pedals did I have to buy this year to get a nod on anyone's list?
Look out waits, you second-rate carnival barker! Your ass is mine!
#3!
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1) David Holmes - 5 (Not many people know this guy, my most significant artist of the new century, but he’s released over 60 tracks with very few duds, and this year’s album, The Holy Pictures, was of the consistent high quality he displayed in the first half of the decade. He’s basically a laptop/dance/what we used to call techno sort of guy.)
2) Tom Waits - 1
3) Spoony - 3
Jesus. FINALLY some recognition. How many pedals did I have to buy this year to get a nod on anyone's list?
Look out waits, you second-rate carnival barker! Your ass is mine!
#3!
I dig your stuff, Spoony.
I hear your music's great too.
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I am outraged that George Harrison isn't on the list!
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Not really related to the topic, but anybody heard about this?
Massive Peel Sessions CD Set Unveiled
V2 Online, the independent British record company primarily known for producing classic rock music compilation discs, as well distributing recent critically acclaimed albums by Paul Weller and Elbow, has agreed to a deal in principle with The John Peel Trust (inc). The agreement entitles V2 to release an ambitious CD set, described as a “maxi-boxset”, tentatively entitled “The Complete John Peel Sessions.”
"The market is saturated with single-artist collections of John Peel Sessions," according to Dominique le Roux, V2 Online's Media Manager, “but there is a wealth of unreleased material.” A group of rock historians from 5 continents was challenged to think beyond normal considerations of time and space limitations to come up with an appropriate tribute to the legacy of Mr. Peel. Their conclusion? Make it all available. The result is a comprehensive collection of historic recordings never before available in a single package to the general public.
According to le Roux, highlights include some of the earliest live recordings from the likes of Pink Floyd, David Bowie, Jimi Hendrix, Momentum Flux, and T Rex. One disc is entirely devoted to highlights of Peel’s comments on the performances as they were in progress.
The package, containing approximately 37000 songs by nearly 6000 artists will be available in 3 formats, as either a set of 2409 standard CDs, 247 MP3 discs, or 64 double-layer music DVDs. The projected retail price of the package is approximately 15200 Euros, or 14200 pounds, with a 5% discount for the MP3 versions.
The collection is projected to be released on what would have been John Peel’s 70th birthday, August 30, 2009.
For more information, see http://www.v2music.com/
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Not really related to the topic, but anybody heard about this?
Massive Peel Sessions CD Set Unveiled
V2 Online, the independent British record company primarily known for producing classic rock music compilation discs, as well distributing recent critically acclaimed albums by Paul Weller and Elbow, has agreed to a deal in principle with The John Peel Trust (inc). The agreement entitles V2 to release an ambitious CD set, described as a “maxi-boxset”, tentatively entitled “The Complete John Peel Sessions.”
"The market is saturated with single-artist collections of John Peel Sessions," according to Dominique le Roux, V2 Online's Media Manager, “but there is a wealth of unreleased material.” A group of rock historians from 5 continents was challenged to think beyond normal considerations of time and space limitations to come up with an appropriate tribute to the legacy of Mr. Peel. Their conclusion? Make it all available. The result is a comprehensive collection of historic recordings never before available in a single package to the general public.
According to le Roux, highlights include some of the earliest live recordings from the likes of Pink Floyd, David Bowie, Jimi Hendrix, Momentum Flux, and T Rex. One disc is entirely devoted to highlights of Peel’s comments on the performances as they were in progress.
The package, containing approximately 37000 songs by nearly 6000 artists will be available in 3 formats, as either a set of 2409 standard CDs, 247 MP3 discs, or 64 double-layer music DVDs. The projected retail price of the package is approximately 15200 Euros, or 14200 pounds, with a 5% discount for the MP3 versions.
The collection is projected to be released on what would have been John Peel’s 70th birthday, August 30, 2009.
For more information, see http://www.v2music.com/
That was really exciting, until I saw the price.
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I had no idea the guy who lost a VJ contest to Jesse Camp was so championed by the critics.
wrong David Holmes.
The Jesse Camp David Holmes is an occasional guest on Never Not Funny.
As mentioned below, this David Holmes is probably best known for his work scoring/soundtracking Steven Soderbergh movies.
Here is another site's "meta"-evaluation of Mr. Holmes:
http://www.acclaimedmusic.net/Current/David%20Holmes.htm
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I had no idea the guy who lost a VJ contest to Jesse Camp was so championed by the critics.
wrong David Holmes.
jokes and the people who hate them
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That was really exciting, until I saw the price.
And the date.
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Darn you smart FOT and your refusal to fall for an April Fool's joke I wrote SEVEN drafts of!
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That was really exciting, until I saw the price.
And the date.
D'oh, stupid me. See, Dave? Not all the FOT are smart.
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Soupjam ahead of Radiohead? Let's get serious.
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Soupjam ahead of Radiohead? Let's get serious.
I don't rate the records, I just compile them.