FOT Forum
FOT Community => General Discussion => Topic started by: scotttsss on February 18, 2008, 11:01:56 PM
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Haven't we done enough? Even though we've been doing it for thousands of years now...killing people and animals. I mean, christ. Enough already. There's really no need. I'm no hippie johnny either. Marie Laure (my wife) read an Australian character named Peter Singer, and went vegan about a year ago. I was vegetarian during the LSD days of my youth. Went back to "meh." meat eating a few years ago. I started with organic etc etc then soon enough back to "fuck it man." Just gross. And no need, of course. I just wanted to drop a line to those of us who're sitting on the fence, meat-eating wise. Me, I'm hopping off that filthy fence, shamefacedly. This is the stuff of nightmares and cold sweats.
[youtube]6OjhPVL48Ks[/youtube]
[youtube]xTZTCNnrUNY&feature=related[/youtube]
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good choice
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Haven't we done enough? Even though we've been doing it for thousands of years now...killing people and animals. I mean, christ. Enough already. There's really no need. I'm no hippie johnny either. Marie Laure (my wife) read an Australian character named Peter Singer, and went vegan about a year ago. I was vegetarian during the LSD days of my youth. Went back to "meh." meat eating a few years ago. I started with organic etc etc then soon enough back to "fuck it man." Just gross. And no need, of course. I just wanted to drop a line to those of us who're sitting on the fence, meat-eating wise. Me, I'm hopping off that filthy fence, shamefacedly. This is the stuff of nightmares and cold sweats.
i enjoy living the vegetarian lifestyle...but its damn expensive. unless i want to live off peanut butter jelly sandwiches and top ramen soup.
any low cost options, folks?
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cheese pizza
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I'm pretty sure a vegetarian diet would be cheaper for me, since wholesome, kindly raised meat is madly expensive. The thing is, even if I became a vegetarian, I would not feel right imposing that choice on my dogs and could not impose it on my cats, so I'd have to buy meat for them regardless. And since I'm not rich enough to feed them meat from nicely raised beasts,* and the bulk of the meat I buy is intended for them, I would continue to feel like an immoral (in some ways) monster even if I ceased to eat meat altogether.
*This morning, for example, I bought $20.75 worth of chicken leg/thigh quarters, which will supply my dogs with breakfast for about two weeks. The same amount of chicken bought from the local organic farm would have cost me almost $100. The meat I need for their supper would similarly cost me about $100 for a two-week supply of what I think of as good meat, whereas I could get the equivalent amount from the supermarket for $28. Thus it would cost me $200 every two weeks to feed them good meat, compared to $50. Add another $260 annually for the cats, and the cost of feeding my animals good meat for a year would amount to about $4,000. If I stopped feeding my beasts supermarket meat, I'd have to buy packaged animal food, and I suspect the treatment of many of the animals that yield the meat that goes into that is even worse than what's shown in those clips. I have, in other words, chosen what I think is the lesser of this particular evil, given my extremely modest income. Although, come to think of it, breaking down the costs this way is making me think I should at least switch the cats to good meat. So that's something.
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cheese pizza
every day?...i wish!
cheese pizza=pizza face
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Haven't we done enough? Even though we've been doing it for thousands of years now...killing people and animals. I mean, christ. Enough already. There's really no need. I'm no hippie johnny either. Marie Laure (my wife) read an Australian character named Peter Singer, and went vegan about a year ago. I was vegetarian during the LSD days of my youth. Went back to "meh." meat eating a few years ago. I started with organic etc etc then soon enough back to "fuck it man." Just gross. And no need, of course. I just wanted to drop a line to those of us who're sitting on the fence, meat-eating wise. Me, I'm hopping off that filthy fence, shamefacedly. This is the stuff of nightmares and cold sweats.
i enjoy living the vegetarian lifestyle...but its damn expensive. unless i want to live off peanut butter jelly sandwiches and top ramen soup.
any low cost options, folks?
learn to cook.
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I'm pretty sure a vegetarian diet would be cheaper for me, since wholesome, kindly raised meat is madly expensive. The thing is, even if I became a vegetarian, I would not feel right imposing that choice on my dogs and could not impose it on my cats, so I'd have to buy meat for them regardless. And since I'm not rich enough to feed them meat from nicely raised beasts,* and the bulk of the meat I buy is intended for them, I would continue to feel like an immoral (in some ways) monster even if I ceased to eat meat altogether.
*This morning, for example, I bought $20.75 worth of chicken leg/thigh quarters, which will supply my dogs with breakfast for about two weeks. The same amount of chicken bought from the local organic farm would have cost me almost $100. The meat I need for their supper would similarly cost me about $100 for a two-week supply of what I think of as good meat, whereas I could get the equivalent amount from the supermarket for $28. Thus it would cost me $200 every two weeks to feed them good meat, compared to $50. Add another $260 annually for the cats, and the cost of feeding my animals good meat for a year would amount to about $4,000. If I stopped feeding my beasts supermarket meat, I'd have to buy packaged animal food, and I suspect the treatment of many of the animals that yield the meat that goes into that is even worse than what's shown in those clips. I have, in other words, chosen what I think is the lesser of this particular evil, given my extremely modest income. Although, come to think of it, breaking down the costs this way is making me think I should at least switch the cats to good meat. So that's something.
Maybe you would save money if you fed your dogs dog food instead of chicken?
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cheese pizza
every day?...i wish!
cheese pizza=pizza face
Here's a super cheap recipe for veggie chili. I used to eat it in college ALL the time.
This version uses canned veggies, but I prefer to make it with fresh ones:
1 Can light red kidney beans
1 Can dark red kidney beans
1 Can tomatoes (diced - if you like spicy chili get Rotel tomatoes and use two cans)
1 Small can tomato sauce
1 Can of water (use tomato can -- it gets all the juices out)
1 Diced green pepper
1 Diced onion
1 Diced Red pepper (omit if they're too expensive)
1 Can sliced carrots
1 Can corn
Diced jalapeno (optional)
3tbs Cumin
3tbs chili powder
Garlic powder
Olive oil
Cilantro or oregano (optional)
Sautee onion and pepper in olive oil til soft. Drain and add the rest of the veggies (except tomatoes) and beans. Add tomato sauce, tomatoes and water and spices. Simmer on low for a few hours until you taste it and all the flavors have come together.
A whole pot of this can cost as little as 7 bucks. Having Cumin and Chili powder around is a very good idea because you can throw both spices onto ANYTHING to give them a nice mexican taste. You can also throw a little extra water in, and then add a half cup of dry rice during the last half hour of cooking. This makes the chili very hearty and thick.
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If I stopped feeding my beasts supermarket meat, I'd have to buy packaged animal food, and I suspect the treatment of many of the animals that yield the meat that goes into that is even worse than what's shown in those clips. I have, in other words, chosen what I think is the lesser of this particular evil, given my extremely modest income.
Maybe you would save money if you fed your dogs dog food instead of chicken?
Your issue was addressed in the original post, wiseguy. I edited it down for clarity.
I stopped eating beef awhile ago. It's a start anyway. My girlfriend's a vegetarian so I don't eat a ton of meat at home.
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I feel that vegetarianism is very hard for a person with little time and almost all of us are in that boat. I found when I tried a vegetarian diet that it took a lot of time to prepare a meal that would sustain me until the next meal time. A meat eater has plenty of on-the go semi-healthy options. There's little veggie options unless you prepare something for yourself and even then you have to have ingredients on hand and have plenty of recipes so your diet doesn't become monotonous. Vegetarianism is a lifestyle and for most people that just isn't practical.
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ugh.
someone please kill this thread before I go nuts
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If I stopped feeding my beasts supermarket meat, I'd have to buy packaged animal food, and I suspect the treatment of many of the animals that yield the meat that goes into that is even worse than what's shown in those clips. I have, in other words, chosen what I think is the lesser of this particular evil, given my extremely modest income.
Maybe you would save money if you fed your dogs dog food instead of chicken?
Your issue was addressed in the original post, wiseguy. I edited it down for clarity.
Whoops, I missed that part in Sarah's post. I suck.
someone please kill this thread before i go nuts
Nuts are an excellent source of protein in a meat-free diet!
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ugh.
someone please kill this thread before I go nuts. granola. tempeh. Cliff Bar. dairy. pork-product.
Fixed!
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ok, I'm gonna try to do without being to insulting.
1. being vegetarian or vegan is not expensive if you don't want it to be.. you're being lazy and ignorant if you think there's nothing for someone on a budget to eat thats cheap and also nutritious. just because its at whole foods doesn't make it healthy. take 5 minutes, do some research.
2. Gilly, I'm sorry but thats just insane. If you're so busy that you can't take 20 minutes to prepare a simple meal you need to seriously reevaluate your life. as for food on the go, why not take the time you spent posting the message board today and see if you can find any places with vegetarian alternatives in your area?
Living this "lifestyle" is nowhere near as hard as people seem to think it is.
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ok, I'm gonna try to do without being to insulting.
1. being vegetarian or vegan is not expensive if you don't want it to be.. you're being lazy and ignorant if you think there's nothing for someone on a budget to eat thats cheap and also nutritious. just because its at whole foods doesn't make it healthy. take 5 minutes, do some research.
2. Gilly, I'm sorry but thats just insane. If you're so busy that you can't take 20 minutes to prepare a simple meal you need to seriously reevaluate your life. as for food on the go, why not take the time you spent posting the message board today and see if you can find any places with vegetarian alternatives in your area?
Living this "lifestyle" is nowhere near as hard as people seem to think it is.
Is vegetarianism something that's worth insulting people over?
You're so condescending about it. Gross.
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ok, I'm gonna try to do without being to insulting.
you're being lazy and ignorant
thats just insane
you need to seriously reevaluate your life
Mission failed.
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I post at work. I'd waste my time cooking if I had an oven here.
It is a lifestyle when you have to think about what you are going to make or where you have to drive to not eat meat. That's very difficult for most people. It's not lazy or ignorant, it's just hard to fit that into an already hectic world.
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I post at work. I'd waste my time cooking if I had an oven here.
It is a lifestyle when you have to think about what you are going to make or where you have to drive to not eat meat. That's very difficult for most people. It's not lazy or ignorant, it's just hard to fit that into an already hectic world.
I might have been to harsh but the reevaluation I spoke of was maybe you should try to make time for things like cooking. it can be very therapeutic at the end of a long day. I started cooking out of necessity but it ended up being one of the best parts of my day.
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Sarah, I can ask the folks at Pet's Best for some recommendations. I only pay a few more dollars for the free-range, organic, hormone-free, human-grade stuff I buy my cats than I would if I bought crap like Iams.
Have you looked into Raw Advantage (http://www.rawadvantagepetfood.com/Default.aspx?tabid=17458)? It looks kind of pricey, though. I'll look around.
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I never felt insulted. I wasn't really speaking for myself other than the experience I had with it. I was just stating that a lot of people are going to have difficulties adjusting to the lifestyle because it is a big adjustment to not have food at your disposal everywhere you go.
I like meat but I do have the advantage of knowing exactly where my beef and chicken is coming from because we get it from my wife's family or their friends who farm in northern MN.
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Thanks, Laurie, but there's no way any of the organic prepared beast food is going to be cheaper than what I make myself (and I did quite a lot of research on it before I decided to go this route)--especially since I'd have to get it mail-order, and the shipping costs are enormous. Besides, the beasts love what I'm feeding them now, and they're thriving on it.
JJ, thanks for defending my honor. Todd, you don't suck.
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I say the following things as a non-vegetarian.
Is vegetarianism something that's worth insulting people over?
Maybe.
You're so condescending about it. Gross.
I don't think he's condescending. If you make a choice to do something with your life, it's irritating when people color those decisions in a certain way to make an argument. Doubtless he's had to defend his vegetarianism to countless people for countless reasons from the totally stupid to the almost-worthwhile.
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I started this post just as a jumping off point for those of us on the fence as I said. It's a personal decision not worth getting angry about. It can be quite cheap indeed to live vegetarian/vegan, and in no way is it more complicated to cook vegetables than meat... (quite the contrary!) As far as going out to eat, there are many things which are vegan, and if you're not sure just ask the people who work there. They want your business.
A similar reaction of anger occurs in bikeforums.net, where bicyclists rant and rave about people not riding bikes as we do... but after a few years of riding a bike and not driving a car, well, I've just come to realize that yeah, not everyone's ready to give up their car. When someone DOES ride a bike though, I'm happy and grateful.
Very cool of Erika to post the chili recipe... that's what we should do in fact if people are unsure how to go about attempting something we're into, show them how to do it, rather than yelling about those who refuse to. <=after work, will do so myself. Polenta is an awesome, easy dish to make. more later.
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Another rarely mentioned benefit of becoming a vegetarian is that cleaning the kitchen becomes much easier. Meat is so greasy and otherwise dirty. I, who am very cavalier when it comes to maintaining hygienic conditions in the kitchen, find myself scrubbing my counters (and hands) with disinfectant (well, white vinegar) much more often now that I'm constantly handling raw meat in the course of fixing my beasts' meals.
This might seem like a petty consideration, but if you hate housework as much as I do--even if the Best Show does make housework easy--it can loom large.
Also, your trash is less likely to stink, and you don't have as much styrofoam and plastic wrap to throw away. My garbage can would be far lighter if the beasts and I were vegetarians. And, hey, since some of you might have to pay by the bag for trash pickup, you'd be saving a bit of money, too!
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Very cool of Erika to post the chili recipe...
no kidding. delicious!
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Very cool of Erika to post the chili recipe...
no kidding. delicious!
No problem. I have a bunch of veggie (but maybe not vegan) recipes up my sleeve.
Although I'm an omnivore, I eat vegetarian food much of the time. It's tasty and humane and good for you. I'm just not ready to give up meat 100% (And I'll never give up cheese).
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I eat 100% meat and I like for it to be raised and prepared in the most brutal, animalistic ways possible.
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So what you're saying is that you like your meat beaten, yes?
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you can joke about it all you want, but until you've picked up a drugged up domesticated feline and taken a bite out of it's still breathing body, you have no right to judge.
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It is a lifestyle when you have to think about what you are going to make or where you have to drive to not eat meat. That's very difficult for most people. It's not lazy or ignorant, it's just hard to fit that into an already hectic world.
Gilly - I think that the argument that it's very difficult for people to think about what they eat is a non-starter, my friend. Whatever you're eating - meat or not - should involve a little bit of thought, and like with anything that people add to their lives to try to better them (exercise, television, yoga, prayer, drinkin', drugs, etc.), once you start down the path of incorporating a little bit of extra thought about how to incorporate these things, you figure it out, and often, as they become more a natural part of your life, you wonder why you wondered that it would ever be so hard in the first place, you know?
As far as "where you have to drive" goes, I'm snarkily curious about where you eat or shop normally that doesn't have vegetables available or that serves ONLY meat? If there's truly NOTHING on the menu that's vegetarian, is it too much trouble to ask a waiter at an Italian restaurant if they can make that dish "without the pancetta," or at the Chinese place without chicken, or the French place without the duck confit? (Well, actually, fuck Cordon Bleu French cooking - notice I say nothing about French country cooking..). But seriously - options are always there.
As far as price goes, at least for what people perceive to be the more pricey "fake meat" options, if you're making burgers, Fresh Direct (I don't use it, but I figured they'd have prices on line... and they did) has ground beef patties at $6.99 a pound, which comes out to $0.44 an ounce, and Yves' veggie burgers at $3.29 for a 4 pack, which is 10.5 oz. of burger, which works out to $0.31 an ounce.
And just for the record, though people's fears about not getting enough protein are overwrought (most diets give us too MUCH), the beef has 23g and the Yves' have 12g of protein per serving, but the "serving size" of the beef patties is 4oz, so it works out to 5.75g per oz., and the "serving size" of the Yves' patties is 2.65oz, so it works out to 4.52g per oz. - a 1g per ounce difference.
And obviously, simple vegetables themselves are not going to out-price your normal shopping, since you probably buy them anyway. A 15.5 oz can of Goya pinto beans is just $0.89. A bunch of green kale - HUGELY nutritious - is $2.79. A bunch of broccoli is $1.99. Nasoya "Silken Light" tofu is $2.39 a pound, and "Boneless, skinless, chicken breast value pack" is $3.69 a pound. Beer is $1.44 per pound (6 12oz. bottles of Bud Light is $6.50).
Also, I gotta say, as this economic argument starts to get made, people are so worried about not offending each other with words like "lazy," etc., but there's a slight undercurrent of accusation in the "normal people can't take the time or afford to live like that" argument that's kind of offensive as well. The implication is that all vegetarians are bohemian lay-abouts with unlimited disposable income. Yes, I'm a musician by trade, but I've been living hand-to-mouth, as a vegetarian and vegan for the last 20 years. My parents, who both still work all day every day (my father for an average of 14 hours a day) went vegetarian when they were in their early 40s, working full time, with four kids, and managed to make it happen. It DOES take some extra thought (and thus, time) - but it's literally just "SOME" extra thought - it's not like you have to put your life on hold to go to grad school to get a degree, or something - we're talking about minutes and seconds here. I'd venture to say that we can all, if we chose to, find those minutes and seconds in our lives, whatever we need or want them for. Again - IF WE CHOSE TO. If you don't chose to, that's your choice - own it - but I have a hard time with the idea that it can't be done.
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When I visited the Twin Cities, nearly every restaurant I went to had vegetarian or vegan options. One of the best pizzas I've ever had, at Galactic Pizza (http://www.galacticpizza.com/msgvgn.html), was a vegan pizza. I can understand that it might be a challenge eating out if you live in a small town or something, but it's not so hard if you live in a city filled with Ethiopian, Thai, and Indian restaurants.
And in the interest of full disclosure, I'm also an omnivore. I limit my animal consumption to chicken, but I buy it from my hippie farmer friends.
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Gilly - I think that the argument that it's very difficult for people to think about what they eat is a non-starter, my friend. Whatever you're eating - meat or not - should involve a little bit of thought, and like with anything that people add to their lives to try to better them (exercise, television, yoga, prayer, drinkin', drugs, etc.), once you start down the path of incorporating a little bit of extra thought about how to incorporate these things, you figure it out, and often, as they become more a natural part of your life, you wonder why you wondered that it would ever be so hard in the first place, you know?
I agree. It's difficult for most people to make changes to their diet no matter if they are looking at vegetarian options or not. Making a dietary change isn't easy...it's something you need to make conscious decisions about every waking hour. But, once you keep making those decisions they become unconscious decisions and a lifestyle.
But, really the main reason a person isn't willing to make that adjustment to become a vegetarian is that they probably aren't that sympathetic about animal rights in the first place or don't have strong feelings about eating it. If they did they wouldn't be eating meat.
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Gilly - I think that the argument that it's very difficult for people to think about what they eat is a non-starter, my friend. Whatever you're eating - meat or not - should involve a little bit of thought, and like with anything that people add to their lives to try to better them (exercise, television, yoga, prayer, drinkin', drugs, etc.), once you start down the path of incorporating a little bit of extra thought about how to incorporate these things, you figure it out, and often, as they become more a natural part of your life, you wonder why you wondered that it would ever be so hard in the first place, you know?
I agree. It's difficult for most people to make changes to their diet no matter if they are looking at vegetarian options or not. Making a dietary change isn't easy...it's something you need to make conscious decisions about every waking hour. But, once you keep making those decisions they become unconscious decisions and a lifestyle.
But, really the main reason a person isn't willing to make that adjustment to become a vegetarian is that they probably aren't that sympathetic about animal rights in the first place or don't have strong feelings about eating it. If they did they wouldn't be eating meat.
I think you hit the nail on the head, there.
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Is there really no value in eating meat that was killed humanely? Or humanely raised? Why is there no respect given to people who do that vs eating meat from just anywhere?
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I think that past threads have proven that nobody is having their mind changed here. I vote for letting this thread die.
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Is it me or is this thread not really all that contentious and should be allowed to live?
Is there really no value in eating meat that was killed humanely? Or humanely raised? Why is there no respect given to people who do that vs eating meat from just anywhere?
That's the basic thesis of Omnivore's Dilemma is it not? That the biggest problem is not that eating meat is by itself "wrong" and "evil" but that industrialized agriculture makes meat the most inhumane and unhealthy of all your options, and that if it were not for industrialized agriculture than eating meat would not be such a reprehensible activity? Because I'm in agreement with that. It's not that I'm against eating cows in principal, but the way cows are treated in the current system is unacceptable and I do not wish to contribute money to that system, nor do I want the products of that system in my body. Alternatives to factory-produced meats are out there, but my understanding is that THOSE are the things that are expensive. Not the vegetables, but the organically/humanely produced meats, so if you're trying to be humane on a budget, then it's better to just forego the meat-eating altogether(?).
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Is it me or is this thread not really all that contentious and should be allowed to live?
Is there really no value in eating meat that was killed humanely? Or humanely raised? Why is there no respect given to people who do that vs eating meat from just anywhere?
That's the basic thesis of Omnivore's Dilemma is it not? That the biggest problem is not that eating meat is by itself "wrong" and "evil" but that industrialized agriculture makes meat the most inhumane and unhealthy of all your options, and that if it were not for industrialized agriculture than eating meat would not be such a reprehensible activity? Because I'm in agreement with that. It's not that I'm against eating cows in principal, but the way cows are treated in the current system is unacceptable and I do not wish to contribute money to that system, nor do I want the products of that system in my body. Alternatives to factory-produced meats are out there, but my understanding is that THOSE are the things that are expensive. Not the vegetables, but the organically/humanely produced meats, so if you're trying to be humane on a budget, then it's better to just forego the meat-eating altogether(?).
Yes! I'm not against people eating meat per se, I'm against the practices of battery/factory farming.
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But, really the main reason a person isn't willing to make that adjustment to become a vegetarian is that they probably aren't that sympathetic about animal rights in the first place or don't have strong feelings about eating it. If they did they wouldn't be eating meat.
I think you hit the nail on the head, there.
I think what TL and others have said about lifestyle changes is true. Just speaking from my own experience, in the last couple years I've made a few lifestyle changes in different areas, including majorly reorganizing my diet (although not going vegan). I've gotta say, they've all been difficult, but the diet changes have been the hardest by far. Like Gilly said, it's just something that needs dedicated thought every single day, and although I know it will eventually become a natural habit like TL says, like anything else, it's always difficult to pick up any habit out of the blue, much less one having to do with something as basic and all-pervasive as eating.
So in the “it’s too hard/it’s not too hard debate”, I empathize with both side. Fundamentally changing what you eat and the way you eat is very, very difficult and not something to be taken lightly. BUT, it is possible, and I can’t entirely blame the fact that I’m not vegan on it. For me, it’s like Gilly said – at the end of the day, it purely has to do with my own feelings, ethics, and beliefs about the actual issue at hand.
I think sometimes people use the “difficulty” argument as a bit of an excuse to avoid owning up to the ethical considerations at hand. To a certain extent I do respect that as an argument – major dietary changes ARE profoundly difficult, as I know from personal experience. But I think to be able to get away with it completely, you also have to be able to come to grips with the abstract side of things and acknowledge that, to a certain extent, you’re not a vegan because of an ethical choice that you’ve made. That’s why you never see people who would otherwise be passionate vegans and find meat-eating morally repugnant shrugging their shoulders and saying that they have no choice but to eat meat anyway. People who really WANT to go vegan, they will find a way to go vegan. If you DON’T want to go vegan, that’s totally cool – but I think you have to acknowledge that you do have at least some ethical ownership over the decision, aside from the substantial practical considerations.
At least that’s the way I see it based on my own personal experiences. I’m hesitant to even post anything on this topic just based on all the raw nerves exposed and the easily-hurt feelings that come with this discussion. Again, I’m a meat eater, so I’m not trying to make any other meat eaters feel bad. I guess it’s just that, as Tom would say, whatever you’re choices are, you gotta own ‘em.
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An easy polenta recipe:
Get some polenta, or corse ground corn meal at the store. In a big pot (such as one you'd use for boiling pasta water) bring 10 cups of water to a rolling boil, and add salt. With a big whisk stir the water around and around as you slowly add 3.5 cups of polenta. Keep stirring and get rid of any lumps. When the water begins to come back to a boil, turn it down to medium low or such that the polenta is bubbling but not exploding (it's like lava). Switch to a strong spoon at this point and keep stirring for about 30 minutes, making sure the polenta doesn't stick to the bottom of the pot. The goal at this point is to reduce the water down, and to cook the polenta till it's got a smooth, creamy consistency. The water/polenta ratio isn't set in stone, really, it's like a very forgiving rice in that respect. If you're worried it's becoming too dry as you're stirring it, have a kettle going on a back burner and add some hot water. It's not something you have to worry about overcooking really.
<= That's what I do. If you search the internet and cook books and there are many nuances at your disposal. You can buy those logs of already cooked polenta at the store, but they're about $3 bucks where I live and course ground corn meal is WAY cheaper. Anyway, after the polenta is done, you can pour it into a bowl and eat it like that as a side dish, you can pour it onto parchment paper or a cookie sheet, let it solidify as it cools, and then cut it up and fry it, bake it etc etc. Quite versatile. My favorite is to pour it into baking dishes, let it cool, and then top it with a simple tomato sauce and top it as one would a pizza, and bake it at 350 degrees for 30 minutes or so. It's very satisfying, especially in the summertime when basil and more fresh herbs are easier to find/grow.
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2293/2259041706_9ce6b43e09.jpg?v=0)
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I didn't have any time to read all those words, but is this some sort of art installation? Because I sure wouldn't want to see that exhibit after I had eaten!
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2293/2259041706_9ce6b43e09.jpg?v=0)
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I like polenta cut into discs and fried and served with eggs and beans and salsa. Kind of like juevos rancheros.
Another good veggie thing I do is I layer corn tortillas, rotel tomatoes, salsa, beans (pinto -- whole or fried. you could also use black) and sauteed onions and peppers like lasagna. Make sure there is plenty of salsa or tomatoes covering each tortilla and then bake. It's good with a salad. (naturally, it's also good with cheeze)
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As a cannibal, I find this thread offensive.
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bite me.
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You guys are awesome with your recipes. This thread is exactly what my poor vegetarian self needs.
What do you guys feed your cats? I've been feeding them Iams and Fancy Feast for the entire time I've had them, and I know how icky that stuff is, but I don't really know my alternatives. What kind of pet food or meats are safe/good for cats? Is that organic pet food any better? Sorry if I sound so stupid about all this. I haven't had much exposure to meat, having been raised vegetarian.
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Other, smaller cats
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bite me.
Zing!
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I follow this recipe:
4.4 pounds raw muscle meat with bones (chicken thighs and drumsticks or, better, a whole carcass of rabbit or chicken amounting to 2 kg; if you don't use a whole carcass, opt for dark meat like thighs and drumsticks from chicken or turkey)
14 oz raw heart, ideally from the same animal (if no heart is available, substitute with 4000 mg Taurine)
7 oz raw liver, ideally from the same animal (if you can't find appropriate liver, you can substitute 40,000 IU of Vitamin A and 1600 IU of Vitamin D--but try to use real liver rather than substitutes)
NOTE: If you cannot find the heart or liver and decide to substitute with the Taurine/Vitamin A and D, then remember to REPLACE the missing amount of organ meat with the equivalent amount of muscle meat. In other words, if you cannot find heart, you add another 400 grams of the meat/bones. If you can’t find the liver, add another 200 grams of meat/bone.
16 oz [2 cups] water
4 raw egg yolks (use eggs from free-range, antibiotic-free chickens if you can)
4 capsules raw glandular supplement, such as, for example, multigland supplement by Immoplex)
4000 mg salmon oil (see note at bottom of recipe*)
800 IU Vitamin E (“dry E” works well)
200 mg Vitamin B complex
1/4 tsp. kelp and 1/4 tsp of dulse (1/2 tsp total)
4 tsp. psyllium husk powder (8 tsp. if using whole psyllium husks; see note at bottom of recipe**)
NOTE: If you will not be using the food immediately and freezing for more than a week or two, toss in 4000 mg of additional Taurine to make up for what may get lost during storage. It is also not a bad idea to sprinkle extra Taurine from a capsule on the food as you're serving it two or three times a week, just to be certain your cat is getting plenty of this critical amino acid.
1. Remove the skin from the muscle meat. Chunk up (i.e., cut) as much of the muscle meat (minus most of the skin if using chicken or turkey, but leave skin on if using rabbit) as you can stand into bite-sized (nickel-sized, approximately) pieces. Save the chunked meat for later. Do not grind it.
2. Grind up the raw liver, any skin, raw meaty bones, and raw heart. Once ground, stir this meat/bone mixture well and return to refrigerator.
3. Fill a bowl with 2 cups of water and whisk everything (non-meat) except the psyllium. If you had to replace liver with Vitamin A/D or replace heart with Taurine, add the substitutes now. Add psyllium at the end--if you're using it-- and mix well. Finally, put the three mixtures together--the "supplement slurry" that you have just mixed, the ground up meat/bone/organs, and the chunks of meat that you cut up by hand. Portion into containers and freeze. Don't overfill the containers. The food expands when frozen and you don't want lids popping off. Thaw as you go. The food shouldn't be left thawed in the refrigerator more than 48 hours before serving. To serve, portion into a 'zipper baggie' and warm under hot water in the sink. NEVER microwave the food. Cats like their food at something approximating "mouse body temperature" [except mine are fine eat it cold].
*Every two or three days, I suggest sprinkling a few drops of fresh salmon oil from a newly-opened capsule on to the cats' food. The Essential Fatty Acids in salmon oil are extremely fragile, and since we do not know exactly how much gets lost during freezing, I think it's wise to use a bit of fresh salmon oil directly on the food a few times a week. Most cats love the flavor.
**Not all cats require additional fiber (psyllium) in their diet. If your cat has been eating low-quality commercial food for several years, especially dry food, she may have lost bowel elasticity and may benefit from the extra fiber. As a general rule, I recommend using psyllium when an adult cat first gets raw food. I rarely add much psyllium to my adult cats' diet. Bear in mind that some cats seem to get constipated without additional fiber, whereas other cats seem to get constipated if they get too much fiber. Each cat is unique, and you'll have to judge what works best for your cat.
It takes me about two hours to make a batch of this cat food, and one batch last two weeks. Each cat gets 1/3 cup a day, in two meals (my cats weigh 7-8 pounds). Both are thriving.
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I don't think I have seen other, smaller cats that would yield this much meat.
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I follow this recipe:
4.4 pounds raw muscle meat with bones (chicken thighs and drumsticks or, better, a whole carcass of rabbit or chicken amounting to 2 kg; if you don't use a whole carcass, opt for dark meat like thighs and drumsticks from chicken or turkey)
14 oz raw heart, ideally from the same animal (if no heart is available, substitute with 4000 mg Taurine)
7 oz raw liver, ideally from the same animal (if you can't find appropriate liver, you can substitute 40,000 IU of Vitamin A and 1600 IU of Vitamin D--but try to use real liver rather than substitutes)
NOTE: If you cannot find the heart or liver and decide to substitute with the Taurine/Vitamin A and D, then remember to REPLACE the missing amount of organ meat with the equivalent amount of muscle meat. In other words, if you cannot find heart, you add another 400 grams of the meat/bones. If you can’t find the liver, add another 200 grams of meat/bone.
16 oz [2 cups] water
4 raw egg yolks (use eggs from free-range, antibiotic-free chickens if you can)
4 capsules raw glandular supplement, such as, for example, multigland supplement by Immoplex)
4000 mg salmon oil (see note at bottom of recipe*)
800 IU Vitamin E (“dry E” works well)
200 mg Vitamin B complex
1/4 tsp. kelp and 1/4 tsp of dulse (1/2 tsp total)
4 tsp. psyllium husk powder (8 tsp. if using whole psyllium husks; see note at bottom of recipe**)
NOTE: If you will not be using the food immediately and freezing for more than a week or two, toss in 4000 mg of additional Taurine to make up for what may get lost during storage. It is also not a bad idea to sprinkle extra Taurine from a capsule on the food as you're serving it two or three times a week, just to be certain your cat is getting plenty of this critical amino acid.
1. Remove the skin from the muscle meat. Chunk up (i.e., cut) as much of the muscle meat (minus most of the skin if using chicken or turkey, but leave skin on if using rabbit) as you can stand into bite-sized (nickel-sized, approximately) pieces. Save the chunked meat for later. Do not grind it.
2. Grind up the raw liver, any skin, raw meaty bones, and raw heart. Once ground, stir this meat/bone mixture well and return to refrigerator.
3. Fill a bowl with 2 cups of water and whisk everything (non-meat) except the psyllium. If you had to replace liver with Vitamin A/D or replace heart with Taurine, add the substitutes now. Add psyllium at the end--if you're using it-- and mix well. Finally, put the three mixtures together--the "supplement slurry" that you have just mixed, the ground up meat/bone/organs, and the chunks of meat that you cut up by hand. Portion into containers and freeze. Don't overfill the containers. The food expands when frozen and you don't want lids popping off. Thaw as you go. The food shouldn't be left thawed in the refrigerator more than 48 hours before serving. To serve, portion into a 'zipper baggie' and warm under hot water in the sink. NEVER microwave the food. Cats like their food at something approximating "mouse body temperature" [except mine are fine eat it cold].
*Every two or three days, I suggest sprinkling a few drops of fresh salmon oil from a newly-opened capsule on to the cats' food. The Essential Fatty Acids in salmon oil are extremely fragile, and since we do not know exactly how much gets lost during freezing, I think it's wise to use a bit of fresh salmon oil directly on the food a few times a week. Most cats love the flavor.
**Not all cats require additional fiber (psyllium) in their diet. If your cat has been eating low-quality commercial food for several years, especially dry food, she may have lost bowel elasticity and may benefit from the extra fiber. As a general rule, I recommend using psyllium when an adult cat first gets raw food. I rarely add much psyllium to my adult cats' diet. Bear in mind that some cats seem to get constipated without additional fiber, whereas other cats seem to get constipated if they get too much fiber. Each cat is unique, and you'll have to judge what works best for your cat.
It takes me about two hours to make a batch of this cat food, and one batch last two weeks. Each cat gets 1/3 cup a day, in two meals (my cats weigh 7-8 pounds). Both are thriving.
Wow, thanks Sarah that's awesome. I've never worked with raw meat before, but we'll see how this goes. I'm not that squeamish. I'm curious, how much will this run me? Also, do you get your meat from the grocery store, or do you go to other sources (I'm in farm country, so I have access to other sources).
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I've never bothered to figure out how much a batch costs me, to tell the truth. For the moment, I'm using chicken from the grocery store (though that may change, as I said earlier); I generally get it for 79 cents a pound. Since you have more sources, you'll probably be able to find a better price. I get chicken livers and hearts from the local organic farmer for $3 (expensive, but I can't see feeding my cats battery chickens' livers) and $1 a pound, respectively (again, I bet you'll find a cheaper source). For now, I'm getting my eggs from the grocery store, but soon enough a guy up the road will be supplying me with free-range eggs for $1.50/dozen (considerably less than the grocery store price). The supplements cost a fair bit, of course, but a bottle goes a long way (the bottle of vitamin E I have, for example, would supply enough for fifty batches--or almost two years of food); plus I'm thinking of leaving out the glandular supplement once the current supply runs out. I'd bet one batch--enough food to feed two cats twice a day for two weeks--costs me $6.
I've used both a manual and an electric grinder to grind the bones, and so far the manual one is the easier. It takes some force but is more thorough, and cleanup is easier.
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Veggie Recipe of the Day: Easy Quiche Type Thing
Bag of shredded potatoes (frozen Hash Browns)
Eggs (6 or 7?)
Milk (optional - 1/4 cup)
1 cup of cheese (strong-flavored cheese is best)
Chopped Frozen Spinach - defrosted with the water squeezed out, or whatever other kinds of semi-cooked veggies you want to add.
Oregano, salt and pepper.
Defrost about 2 cups of the potatoes and squeeze all the water out. Smoosh into the bottom of a greased pie pan or small glass baking dish. Bake at 350 for 15 minutes or so. Put the spinach or other veggies and cheese in the crust. Pour mixture of eggs, milk and spices over it. Bake for about 45 minutes or til it's done.
This is super cheap and easy. You can then make potato pancakes with the leftover potatoes. (Mix with onion, tablespoon of flour and 1 egg and fry them up)
I made this one with spinach, feta and plum tomato. Carmelized (grilled) onion with cheddar and chives is also good.
(http://i27.tinypic.com/2wec2dy.gif)
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You can then make potato pancakes with the leftover potatoes. (Mix with onion, tablespoon of flour and 1 egg and fry them up)
I call them latkes.
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Wow Sarah that’s awesome how much you care for your pet’s wellbeing. I’ve been giving my dog this http://www.thewholedog.org/canineTF.html (http://www.thewholedog.org/canineTF.html) and she acts like how she used to when she was young.
Has anyone tried a raw food diet before? I’m on it now, it’s hard, I never feel full. I keep craving grains. It’s the healthiest I ever felt in my life, but the time it takes to prepare decent meals is exhausting.
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Yeah, both my dogs are way livelier since I changed their diet (each gets one raw chicken leg/thigh quarter in the morning, and for supper a mixture of about a half pound of raw meat--usually beef or pork, 'cause my options are limited--a couple of dollops of ground vegetables, three or so tablespoons of egg, a bit of oil--fish and olive--and supplements). I wish I fed myself as well as I feed my beasts.
I'm impressed that you're on a raw diet. It must indeed be very hard. Christ, for the first time in my life I'm actually thinking about the possibility of giving up meat and eventually going vegan, but the thought of no more dairy especially gives me pause. Giving up grains on top of everything else would push me over the edge.
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The abuse makes the meat more tender.
Which reminds me of my favorite food, Stomped Veal Brachiolle.
Or this. (http://en.epochtimes.com/news/7-3-29/53482.html)
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Why should anyone be surprised by this?
Eating aborted fetuses strikes me as more moral than much other meat eating (bear in mind, please, that I'm a meat eater myself). I do question whether even unborn baby meat is healthy--humans are such filthy animals--but that's another problem.
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Everything is permitted, nothing is nutritious.
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Yeah, both my dogs are way livelier since I changed their diet (each gets one raw chicken leg/thigh quarter in the morning, and for supper a mixture of about a half pound of raw meat--usually beef or pork, 'cause my options are limited--a couple of dollops of ground vegetables, three or so tablespoons of egg, a bit of oil--fish and olive--and supplements). I wish I fed myself as well as I feed my beasts.
I'm impressed that you're on a raw diet. It must indeed be very hard. Christ, for the first time in my life I'm actually thinking about the possibility of giving up meat and eventually going vegan, but the thought of no more dairy especially gives me pause. Giving up grains on top of everything else would push me over the edge.
:-[
I don’t think ill ever be able to go completely raw, it’s too difficult to make three filling meals a day. But I do agree with the raw foodist stance that human and other animals bodies were never meant to consume cooked foods.
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I agree completely, f. crib. But I also think we're all doomed, so nothing really matters, and that balances things out for me.
Re eating raw, it has always seemed to me that grazing all day long (in addition to actual meals) would be the way to go. A pocket ever full of seeds, nuts, and fruit (are you allowed to eat dried fruit? It's not cooked, after all, and indeed can wizen naturally on the vine/branch) into which one could dip at will would help, I would think.
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Yeah, both my dogs are way livelier since I changed their diet (each gets one raw chicken leg/thigh quarter in the morning, and for supper a mixture of about a half pound of raw meat--usually beef or pork, 'cause my options are limited--a couple of dollops of ground vegetables, three or so tablespoons of egg, a bit of oil--fish and olive--and supplements). I wish I fed myself as well as I feed my beasts.
I'm impressed that you're on a raw diet. It must indeed be very hard. Christ, for the first time in my life I'm actually thinking about the possibility of giving up meat and eventually going vegan, but the thought of no more dairy especially gives me pause. Giving up grains on top of everything else would push me over the edge.
:-[
I don’t think ill ever be able to go completely raw, it’s too difficult to make three filling meals a day. But I do agree with the raw foodist stance that human and other animals bodies were never meant to consume cooked foods.
Is that a faith-based stance, or is there evidence to back it up?
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We were also meant to be covered in thick, heavy body hair to protect us from the elements while we used blunt rocks for tools and hoped that someone would bless us with the discovery of fire and perhaps the wheel.
That, and women were meant to give birth while in the standing position and not in these comfortable hospital things they have now-a-days.
Ever see clan of the cave girlbear? THAT'S the way to live!
(Don't even get me started on what those Canine teeth were used for...)
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I believe giving birth standing up (actually, I bet they squatted) would be drastically better than doing so in the prone position so favored by the obstetric classes till recently.
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I saw some shampoo that had animal placenta in it the other day. it made me feel icky just holding it.
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Yeah, both my dogs are way livelier since I changed their diet (each gets one raw chicken leg/thigh quarter in the morning, and for supper a mixture of about a half pound of raw meat--usually beef or pork, 'cause my options are limited--a couple of dollops of ground vegetables, three or so tablespoons of egg, a bit of oil--fish and olive--and supplements). I wish I fed myself as well as I feed my beasts.
I'm impressed that you're on a raw diet. It must indeed be very hard. Christ, for the first time in my life I'm actually thinking about the possibility of giving up meat and eventually going vegan, but the thought of no more dairy especially gives me pause. Giving up grains on top of everything else would push me over the edge.
:-[
I don’t think ill ever be able to go completely raw, it’s too difficult to make three filling meals a day. But I do agree with the raw foodist stance that human and other animals bodies were never meant to consume cooked foods.
Tell that to my asshole.
Hey, you guys have been great. I'll be at Rascals Thursday night.
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Thanks so much, Matt.
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[youtube]oIjfIZQkHMk[/youtube]
I understand there is an overlap in themes, but I think this belongs more in the "War Makes People Do Sick Things" thread than in the "People Are Mean To Animals" thread. Also, when we have troops making tortured-naked-Muslim human pyramids and have known about it for five years, why would this be a surprise?
Edit: That's not really what Matt posted.
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That's it. I'm never clicking on another YouTube video that's been posted in this thread again.
(You could consider warning a person before you post something like that. For fuck's sake.)
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Is it real though?
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I can't bring myself to watch it a second time, but I'm pretty sure it's fake.
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The existential (or is it phenomenological?) fact of this video carries its own resonance. Whether it is "fiction" or "non-fiction" is, in some respects, irrelevant.
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I like that Xavier has been substituted.
Whether the other video was real or not, it is the kind of thing that people do all the time--and not just in wartime. In fact, if it's real, I seriously doubt that the tosser (ha! Brit pun) did as he did because he's in Iraq. He probably stuck firecrackers in cats' bums as a child.
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What was posted? I missed it.
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What was posted? I missed it.
A video of an American soldier in Iraq finding a puppy, showing it to the camera and throwing it forty or fifty feet.
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I like that Xavier has been substituted.
Whether the other video was real or not, it is the kind of thing that people do all the time--and not just in wartime. In fact, if it's real, I seriously doubt that the tosser (ha! Brit pun) did as he did because he's in Iraq. He probably stuck firecrackers in cats' bums as a child.
Fair enough. Some people are just sociopaths. Xavier is my new favorite art.
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What was posted? I missed it.
A video of an American soldier in Iraq finding a puppy, showing it to the camera and throwing it forty or fifty feet.
There goes the Mystery For The Ages.
Never mind the soldier video. The Xavier video is far superior, even if it is only slightly less disturbing.
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I assumed the puppy video was fake cuz otherwise there'd be attention drawn to it in the media and the soldier would get in trouble.
http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/03/04/puppy.marine/index.html (http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/03/04/puppy.marine/index.html)
Good news - the soldier is now in trouble.
Bad news - that motherfucker threw a puppy.
WHY MUST YOU POST VIDEOS THAT MAKE ME CRY, FRIENDS?!
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Take comfort, Dorvid, in the fact that the puppy is well rid of us.
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I know, that shit made it on to Democracy Now today. Do you know what a mindfuck that is, having a YouTube video from the FOT board - a bottom-of-the-barrel, I-refuse-to-watch-this-but-find-out-from-the-discussion-what-it-was video at that - become an actual news item?
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If only that guy had thrown the puppy off the cliff in early 2004, maybe we'd have a Democrat in office already.