FOT Forum
FOT Community => General Discussion => Topic started by: pinky on May 08, 2008, 06:33:54 AM
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I figure Fot's would be better to ask then just getting a feel for the cities from Craigslist. Would be looking at gigs, things to do, interesting climate (I am from Aus) and jobs etc.
Any advice?
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there are a few canadian fots who know for real, but as an american with family in canada, my favorite major cities in canada are toronto and vancouver. i've been to both cities a few times and think they're both great. toronto's cosmopolitan, diverse, clean and friendly, and also has one of the better music scenes going in north america right now. vancouver is beautiful, surprisingly warm for canada, and also clean and friendly.
as for the worst place to live in canada... probably fort mcmurray, alberta (http://www.vbs.tv/video.php?id=987199110).
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I speak mostly of ignorance, but, in line with ChrisF, I can't imagine there is a better city than Toronto.
Windsor might also be a good choice. Having lived in the Ann Arbor area (and soon to be again), I always loved Windsor. But that's only if you don't mind crossing the border sometimes to catch what might be going on in the Detroit area.
I haven't been in the area since the nineties, so I don't know if border patrol has gone all ape-sh*t.
Just throwing Windsor out as a side note. I can't imagine a better city than Toronto, though (including in the US).
Now you're making ME consider one of them...seriously.
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The best place to live in Canada is in Moncton. The second best place to live is in Saskatoon. Next, you might think of living in Ontario near the border of Quebec. Also, who wouldn't love Vancouver? Did I spell that right? The Canadians I've liked best have been from those places, but I've never met a Canadian I didn't like.
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Toronto or Montreal, with Vancouver a distant third. Van has nice weather, but unless you're rich (or a heroin addict) there's not much there.
Montreal is cold as hell, but beautiful, great food, bars and music, and affordable rent. One (possible) downside is that the anglo community is pretty small, so can start to feel pretty claustrophobic and incestuous. Work is a problem there - even if you speak French fluently, anglos are still not terribly employable.
Toronto is ugly, but has everything. Real estate is expensive to buy, but still pretty affordable to rent. There's kind of an uptight, striving quality to the place, but I was always able to maintain my slackerish ways without too much trouble.
Halifax is pretty, but has all the same downsides of the U.K. (alcoholism, too many white people, bad food) with none of the cultural life that the U.K. has.
And unfortunately, that's about it. I'm in Kingston now, which is OK for it's size (~100,000) but is a little too country for me to stay here on a long term basis. Plus, the university students this place attracts are totally loathesome.
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I agree with Bryan on some things. What exactly are you looking for? Vancouver is better for visiting than it is for living; cost of living is really high, and while there are lots of fun neighbourhoods and punk rock goings on, it's not the best city for Fun Things To Do. The weather there is weird--not a lot of snow, but the winters are long and dark and cool but not cold, and the summers are short and bright and warm but not hot. There's also lots of drugs.
Toronto pretty big, which gives it an advantage in a lot of ways--there's a pretty great arts scene here if that's what you're into, lots of theatre and galleries and whatnot. Lotsa music, too, whatever you're into; we've got big little scenes (indie "rock", ska, punk, etc.) as well as numerous giant arenas. I don't know what line of work you're in but it's usually pretty easy to get a part-time job close to home (unless you live in, like, missasauga or something). Not the cheapest place to live, but not as expensive as Vancouver. Bryan is right, though; it is probably one of the ugliest cities ever. Winter is depressingly long, but not too cold.
Montreal is fantastic if you can handle the absolutely freezing winters. Rent is super cheap and most laws favour tenants, so you're pretty much covered, housing-wise. It's lovely and artsy and there's basically nothing bad I can say about it. It can seem intimidating if you don't know French, but I disagree a little with what Bryan said--I've always found that there's a pretty big anglo community, and it's not so hard to get a job if you look in English-speaking neighbourhoods. It does help if you at least make an effort to learn some French, though. People appreciate it and will treat you a lot nicer.
Halifax is really lovely and actually has a great music scene (plus there's more art than you would think; NSCAD turns out a whole lot of talent), but yeah, the university students on near-constant drinking binges can start to grate on your nerves after a while. Also, it's super expensive to get to or from, even by train. Also: horribly cold in the wintertime.
Ignore Julie (sorry Julie!). Please don't move to Saskatoon.
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...Windsor might also be a good choice. Having lived in the Ann Arbor area (and soon to be again), I always loved Windsor. But that's only if you don't mind crossing the border sometimes to catch what might be going on in the Detroit area...
Windsor: The most polluted city in North America, according to RFK Jr.!
http://www.canada.com/windsorstar/news/story.html?id=cc4a6f91-63ea-4c88-9768-3b14d4342fe8&k=55531
My first post ever - hi everybody!
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I believe Windsor is also known for having more strip clubs per square foot than anywhere else in the world.
A good choice, for you pre-vert types.
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Saskatoon?!?! Don't judge.
Steve from Saskatoon
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I believe Windsor is also known for having more strip clubs per square foot than anywhere else in the world.
A good choice, for you pre-vert types.
Guess I let personal bias influence my suggestion ::)
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Wow, thanks for the info everyone. Toronto seems to be shaping as the place to go. Am in London (UK) at the moment so can handle the high cost of living, and ugliness but the constant hassle and lack of humanity is getting a bit old. I have heard great things about Montreal but only really know High School french so would be nervous about being able to go there and support myself. Are there any Montreal FOT's? Are there many expats in Montreal?
Ps. Sorry Saskatoon, am from Aus and left there because I was in the middle of nowhere with nothing to do.
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I'm no Toronto booster, but I don't see it as an ugly city at all. Sure it's bland when compared to Montreal or Vancouver. But compared to most American cities, I find it moderately attractive. There's a certain quintessential Ontario city planning in Toronto that I'm weirdly fond of. Even the run-down areas are kind of endearing. Since you're from Ingaland I'll put it this way. Compared to Birmingham, it's like paradise.
I love living in Ottawa, but I wouldn't recommend it to outsiders. It's an acquired taste. It's a nice sized, uncluttered city but the people can be a bit standoff-ish and fickle until you get to know them.
If I had to move anywhere else in this country, it would probably be Montreal which is a unique looking city with one of the best cultural scenes in North America. The french thing isn't that much of a barrier. If anything it makes life more interesting.
Everybody I know loves Vancouver, but I've never been there so I can't say much other than second hand experience.
I would try to live in Kingston if wanted somewhere quiet to retire to. In my mind it's the heart and soul of Canada, but it's pretty small and isolated from the big cities.
I like Nova Scotia, but it's hard to say if I like Halifax. Every time I've been there it's been really rainy, so I've never got a good look at it in the sunlight.
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Last I was there, Vancouver's homelessy/hookery underside was becoming a bit more evident on the surface, but it (and Montreal and Toronto) still beats the hell out of most US cities I've visited, minus Portland, Seattle, SF and Austin ;)
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Vancouver is fantastic if you really enjoy having zero nightlife, extreme roller-blading, 360 days of rain a year and literally watching people die in the street from drug addictions while you sip your cruelty-free chai latte.
Thumbs down, Vancouver.
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Montreal.
(Not that I've ever lived there).
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Vancouver is fantastic if you really enjoy having zero nightlife, extreme roller-blading, 360 days of rain a year and literally watching people die in the street from drug addictions while you sip your cruelty-free chai latte.
Thumbs down, Vancouver.
Having lived in the 'Couv for three years, I gotta agree. Don't get me wrong: I met some of my best buddies there and had some good times, but I just couldn't jive with the scene there. If Seattle and New York are "Rock & Roll" towns, then Vancouver is a "Deep Sexy House" town. That's the best way I can put it.
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left there because I was in the middle of nowhere with nothing to do.
How about Newbridge, NJ? Lots going on.
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If Seattle and New York are "Rock & Roll" towns, then Vancouver is a "Deep Sexy House" town.
I hear this is the slogan they're putting on all the Olympics stuff.
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If Seattle and New York are "Rock & Roll" towns, then Vancouver is a "Deep Sexy House" town.
I hear this is the slogan they're putting on all the Olympics stuff.
guess who is playing at the opening ceremony:
(http://kickthebobo.com//Swollen_Members_group_shot.jpg)
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guess who is playing at the opening ceremony:
(http://kickthebobo.com//Swollen_Members_group_shot.jpg)
That guy in the middle looks like a depraved 14-year-old.
I was going to post to ask who they are, but I see from quoting you that they're the Swollen Members. I'm still not sure who they are, despite being Canadian myself.
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If Seattle and New York are "Rock & Roll" towns, then Vancouver is a "Deep Sexy House" town.
I hear this is the slogan they're putting on all the Olympics stuff.
guess who is playing at the opening ceremony:
(http://kickthebobo.com//Swollen_Members_group_shot.jpg)
I hear they "always bring it home."
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Saskatoon?!?! Don't judge.
Steve from Saskatoon
I thought the old man on Corner Gas was funny and I liked the print maker from Saskatchewan.
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guess who is playing at the opening ceremony:
(http://kickthebobo.com//Swollen_Members_group_shot.jpg)
I was going to post to ask who they are, but I see from quoting you that they're the Swollen Members. I'm still not sure who they are, despite being Canadian myself.
They're on the soundtrack to a lot of snowboarding videos, if that helps you any.
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Saskatoon?!?! Don't judge.
Steve from Saskatoon
I thought the old man on Corner Gas was funny and I liked the print maker from Saskatchewan.
Well, I guess if you came from the middle of nowhere Australia...the middle of nowhere Canada isn't high on the list of places to live. I've lived all over Canada, and truly loved each place I called home. For me, it had more to do with family and friends then anything else. Just my opinion.
Thanks for weighing in Julie, it's appreciated. I've never watched Corner Gas, I have had the pleasure of meeting Lorne Cardinal through a mutual friend. The beginning and end of my brush with the moderately well known!
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Van has nice weather, but unless you're rich (or a heroin addict) there's not much there.
I lived in Vancouver between 95-2000, and while there is truth to this statement you can also live there as a regular slob and not go broke. Brace yourself for rampant drug use and new agey/magical thinking flakes. Also, a public transportation dreamland.
(come to think of it, I did go broke for a while and lived a few months in my van.....weird to think of that situation now)
R.I.P. Niagra Hotel.
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Yes! I forgot that about Vancouver. All the hippies.
My stepdad lived in Vancouver in the Days Of His Youth. He knew this woman who ran a store called the Crystal Hut or possibly the Crystal Shack. She sold lots of rocks that were supposed to make you healthy or rich if you ate them or kept them with you or something. She made TONS OF MONEY. The point of this story is that Vancouver is the kind of place where you can make a lot of money running a place that sells spiritually enhancing rocks. Maybe this is a plus for you? Maybe not?
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No mention of Winnipeg? That's the closest to Minneapolis (for a city anyway) and I've never been there. What's it like? Kind of looks like Canada's version of Kansas City.
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No mention of Winnipeg? That's the closest to Minneapolis (for a city anyway) and I've never been there. What's it like? Kind of looks like Canada's version of Kansas City.
I've never been to Kansas City, but Winnipeg is freezing fucking cold, has a bunch of problems with poverty and crime, and the roads are terrible. But it is full of nice people, and there are a lot of anarchists! Is that similar?
I am running amok through this thread! I should probably say that I have lived in Toronto for basically all of my life, except for very brief stints in Montreal and The Fax. I have been to many other places for longish visits, but I don't know how much that counts for in the long run. Plus I have already made myself look (more) ridiculous in this thread by making a swollen members reference, so if I were you I wouldn't trust me.
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More like Detroit then? I was thinking Kansas City because it's a big city only in the fact that it's the metro area of it's state and there isn't anything that makes it special.
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I enjoyed visiting Vancouver, but I think I'd have to live somewhere in Ontario, just so I could see plays at the Shaw Festival (http://www.shawfest.com/) and the Stratford Shakespeare Festival (http://www.stratford-festival.on.ca/), and I'm sure any number of companies around Toronto. The theatre scene up there is STRONG! (Grote? yes?)
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I enjoyed visiting Vancouver, but I think I'd have to live somewhere in Ontario, just so I could see plays at the Shaw Festival (http://www.shawfest.com/) and the Stratford Shakespeare Festival (http://www.stratford-festival.on.ca/), and I'm sure any number of companies around Toronto. The theatre scene up there is STRONG! (Grote? yes?)
I think there's some good stuff at both the Shaw and Stratford fests, but more and more they're doing cheesy stuff to satisfy the tourists. (See the tv series "Slings & Arrows" for a snapshot of these places.) Toronto has lots of good theatre stuff though. Ottawa has its share, too.
And Winnipeg is the murder/arson capital of Canada. But at least it's close to Brandon: the hog-slaughtering capital of Canada!
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I might be biased (both my parents are playwright/actors), but I think Toronto has the best theatre scene in Canada. That doesn't mean it's perfect or even uniformly good--there's still way too little funding and people are always complaining and rightly so and blah blah blah, but. We've got the Tarragon, Passe Muraille and Buddies in Bad Times as well as a whole bunch of other small theatre companies for developing new plays and producing and workshopping and etc., and then there's Canstage and Soulpepper and the Mirvishes for the big stuff like, um, the Lord Of The Rings musical and touring productions of Mamma Mia. Shaw and Stratford are hit-and-miss, but there's lots of great theatre in the city.
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I am Canadian. I grew up in Montreal and enjoyed it tremendously. Of course, we hated Toronto (as does most of the rest of Canada). I moved down to the USA almost 10 years ago so I may be out of date but...
Toronto is the most American Canadian city. I think that about says it all. If you are looking to be in Canada, but don't want too much to change, head to T. Plus it is huge and sprawling -- like 10-15 million people or so within an hour or two drive, so there is a lot of variety there ... finding your own niche spot may be difficult but you may actually be able to find it (and love it). Lots of multi-culti fun and a terrible hockey team.
Vancouver is pretty and expensive, comparably. So much depends on what you are looking for ...
Montreal has the coldest winters, the most snow and the best to offer. It also has the "problem" of being only about 50% anglophone (native english speakers...). If you do not know and are unwilling to learn (even the basics of) French, probably not for you. You can still have a great time but job, culture, life in general will be that much more difficult sans francais
I can go on, but a pm might make more sense, if you have specific questions.
WRT where this thread has veered, Toronto almost certainly has the best theatre scene. Beyond the massive population, it also is HQ and main focus of Canadian media generally.
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Of course, we hated Toronto (as does most of the rest of Canada).
Curious why this is?
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Thanks for this thread. Once Bush is out of office, I'm moving to Canada, so it's been very helpful to me.
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Toronto is the most American Canadian city. I think that about says it all. If you are looking to be in Canada, but don't want too much to change, head to T.
This is a claim that has always confused me. Is it simply that the place is more business-minded? When so much of the rest of Canada is becoming a giant exurb, studded with big box stores (a condition that seems much more "American" to me), the claim has always seemed peculiar.
I've also never figured out why everyone "hates" Toronto, though it is true. Some of it is simply provincialism, certainly. But when it's Montrealers? I'm not sure.
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West Coast canada is the place to be. Vancouver is filled with great record stores and lots of cyclists.
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Toronto is the most American Canadian city. I think that about says it all. If you are looking to be in Canada, but don't want too much to change, head to T.
I've also never figured out why everyone "hates" Toronto, though it is true. Some of it is simply provincialism, certainly. But when it's Montrealers? I'm not sure.
A lot of the same reasons Americans rag on Los Angeles or New York. It's a cultural and commercial hub of the country and outside communities resent that it gets so much attention. It's a case of municipal inferiority complex. It's also the seat of our provincial government so it's a target of political ire as well. It's just dumb sibling rivalry. When that hate comes from French Canada, it's because it's seen as the epicenter of the English language culture. It's a common feeling that it is a culture that doesn't care about them and is slowly encroaching on their territory. The feeling is not totally unfounded, although it does reek of xenophobia.
Ottawa gets some of that too, but in our case it's more to do with it being the national capital. Any grievance with the government will get directed at our whole city. As if our shop owners and bike couriers raised the price of gas themselves.
I'm sure in parts of Quebec there's some Montreal haters, but I rarely hear it myself. It may be an influential city, but being french it's automatically viewed as an underdog.
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Thanks for this thread. Once Bush is out of office, I'm moving to Canada, so it's been very helpful to me.
ha!
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Toronto is the most American Canadian city. I think that about says it all. If you are looking to be in Canada, but don't want too much to change, head to T. Plus it is huge and sprawling -- like 10-15 million people or so within an hour or two drive, so there is a lot of variety there ... finding your own niche spot may be difficult but you may actually be able to find it (and love it). Lots of multi-culti fun and a terrible hockey team.
i've heard this claim that toronto is the most american canadian city and it confuses me. what makes it so american? is it because it's ethnically diverse like new york? or that it's anglophone as opposed to montreal and quebec? i guess as an american visitor i've always felt at home in toronto (unlike my times in montreal) but it has always struck me as distinctly canadian or even worldly than especially american.
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Toronto is the most American Canadian city. I think that about says it all. If you are looking to be in Canada, but don't want too much to change, head to T. Plus it is huge and sprawling -- like 10-15 million people or so within an hour or two drive, so there is a lot of variety there ... finding your own niche spot may be difficult but you may actually be able to find it (and love it). Lots of multi-culti fun and a terrible hockey team.
i've heard this claim that toronto is the most american canadian city and it confuses me. what makes it so american? is it because it's ethnically diverse like new york? or that it's anglophone as opposed to montreal and quebec? i guess as an american visitor i've always felt at home in toronto (unlike my times in montreal) but it has always struck me as distinctly canadian or even worldly than especially american.
When Canadians want to insult other Canadians they point out how American they are.
Which is kind of like saying that Canada is more sophisticated than the United States because Earls is better that the Olive Garden.
Kinda true- but nothin' to be proud of, Rusty.
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Toronto is the most American Canadian city. I think that about says it all. If you are looking to be in Canada, but don't want too much to change, head to T. Plus it is huge and sprawling -- like 10-15 million people or so within an hour or two drive, so there is a lot of variety there ... finding your own niche spot may be difficult but you may actually be able to find it (and love it). Lots of multi-culti fun and a terrible hockey team.
i've heard this claim that toronto is the most american canadian city and it confuses me. what makes it so american? is it because it's ethnically diverse like new york? or that it's anglophone as opposed to montreal and quebec? i guess as an american visitor i've always felt at home in toronto (unlike my times in montreal) but it has always struck me as distinctly canadian or even worldly than especially american.
Well, we've certainly gone off topic here, but...
Lots to pick up but I'll just ramble a bit. Yes, there is a bit of provincialism in the Toronto-hatred. Yes, it is ultimately quite silly. Yes, even my comment was overstated. I think it stems, in part, from the fact that Canadians outside of Toronto feel that Torontonians think they are "better" than the non-Torontonians.
But also, each region of Canada (for those who still care) probably has its own distinct reasons for dislike of Toronto. And, probably it is generally for Ontario but it gets focused on Toronto. For example, speaking in broad stereotypical strokes, Alberta is quite right-wing (by Canadian standards). Ontario/Toronto/federal Canadian government is generally left-leaning so Alberta is upset politically. Quebec (the province) is bothered by English Canada in general and since Toronto is / holds itself out to be - the 'center' of English Canada, Quebec is upset. Montreal is upset because Habs fans hate Leafs fans. But also, again stereotyping, when the shakey Quebec political situation was at its worst, many anglophone Montrealers fled Quebec and most ended up in Toronto... That's enough of that...
As for the 'Americanness' of Toronto... what do I mean. Personally, it is not an insult per se to be American. It is simply that Toronto 'feels' the most American of every Canadian city I've visited. Maybe because it is big and sprawling and ultimately bland (though I'm told by residents that beneath the bland surface lies an interesting core... as I referred to above, you should be able to find a happy niche). Tangent --- when I am using American here, I do not mean NYC or LA, two mega-cities with oversized personalities. I mean more the multitude of cities between the coasts where nothing sticks out in particular.
This is getting very bizarre - we are talking about the personification of a city and it is certainly simplistic and reductive.
http://around-the-world1.blogspot.com/2007/05/lets-all-hate-toronto.html
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Not that crime rates are or should be a major determinant of where one should live, but they are interesting statistics. Macleans recently had an article showing the crime scores (explained by a methodology taking into account many diffferent types of crimes, including breaking and entering, robbery, aggravated assault, car theft, sexual assault and murder) of many Canadian cities.
Surprisingly to some, the central-western cities of Regina and Saskatoon, Saskatchewan and Winnepeg, Manitoba were the top three cities, meaning that crime rates were the highest. Vancouver was 9th, Montreal 19th, and Toronto was 26th. What was particularly striking is how the cities at or near the top of the list were overwhelmingly in western Canada. Halifax, Brantford Ont., Thunder Bay and Montreal were the only cities in the top 20 of this list not located in one of the western or prairie provinces.
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I'm an American who's lived in Toronto the past four years, starting to grow sick of it (also my student visa expires soon.) - I'm hoping to move to Portland in the fall, mostly because it seems to have a better music scene and I'm also just generally curious about the west coast. Plus I am really really starting to miss plants and stuff. Would anyone here feel comfortable comparing the two cities? Is this a wise move or should I just stay here and apply for citizenship?
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Toronto's gigantic video screens at major intersections are being installed at a fever pitch. Brett Butt's head looks excellent when it's several stories large.
The disparity in quality from one neighborhood to another in Toronto means it's easy to love and hate. I live in a neighbourhood where I have been mugged a few times and where CCTV cameras are installed; my better half lives in a beautiful cluster of Victorian houses and mom-and-pop fruit stands. Maybe I'm saying whether boho degenerate or violent bum, Toronto has something for everybody? Or the quality of your stay here is contingent upon the part of the city you stay in (probably obvious, but throwing it out there all the same).
I've heard a number of touring musicians say it is perhaps the greatest city for a musician, as venues abound. AND Umberto Eco ranks Robards as one of his very favorite libraries in the world. So if the young men of Billy Talent and the author of Kant and the Platypus: Essays on Language and Cognition (boy, can I tell that that book would make me feel like a Steve-O caliber nitwit) can agree on something, well, sign me up.
If I can perhaps give a suggestion, the message board community (is that a jarring term?) at www.stillepost.ca can give you pertinent details from city to city, or answer a number of particular concerns, &c. If you move to Toronto, try to make it here for June 20, when the entire city gets the day off and a free screening of our city's favorite son in The Love Guru (which has already won all the major national endowments of the arts, and is expected to clean up at the Genies or Geminis or perhaps both, for all I know).
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Re. Canadian theater: I defer to Emma, but from everything I've heard, Toronto is the NYC of Canada, at least as far as theater goes.
Unfortunately there isn't a lot of crossover between Canadian and American theater. I'm not sure exactly why, but I think that, on the one hand, Canada has a lot of pretty sensible culture laws that exist so they don't get totally swamped with US (read: Hollywood) imports. On the US side, it was to do with the fact that we're totally disinterested in other countries, with the exception of theater buffs having inexplicable hard-ons for big English plays (I like UK theater just fine, but I really don't think it's particularly better than anywhere else). The Drowsy Chaperone was a big commercial hit in Toronto that went straight to Broadway, but I think it's the first of its kind. I actively seek out international theater in translation or otherwise, but playwrights who I'm pretty sure are huge in Canada (Judith Thompson, Brad Fraser, Daniel MacIvor) are pretty much unknown here.
As a side-note, Emma, it's awesome that your parents are actor/playwrights. It gives me hope!
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Thanks everyone for the info,
Sounds like most places in Canada have their good points and that as long as I am willing to hate all the other cities and declare my one the best then I should get along just fine.
But seriously, thanks very much for the info, very helpful. See you Canucks in 2009
:)
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Fontasy that Tom brings the show to Toronto:
"CBC, you're on the air…"
"Hey Tom, it's Andrew in Stoney Creek."
"Uhhh, L3M 1R3..."