FOT Forum
FOT Community => General Discussion => Topic started by: Fido on December 14, 2008, 02:05:37 AM
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Just curious what people think -- forced choice -- up or down, not a question of "how much" or with what conditions attached.
Of course, feel free to comment below.
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Depends on the definition of bailout. I think the government should float them enough to operate for a couple of months, but protecting GM is particularly hard to swallow.
On the other hand, watching these right-wing morons froth at the mouth to bash this company that makes the Hummers, Suburbans and Tahoes they love so much is both satisfying and maddening.
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fuck them.
how are they magically supposed to turn this around? the intervention of the government is supposed to all of the sudden turn these dinosaurs into profitable companies? when has the interjection of our gov't ever been a good thing, business-wise? it's not exactly known to be the model of efficiency.
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Hell yes the government should bail out GM and the other car companies.
Contrary to what most people say, the American car is still the finest in the world. I drive a 97 Saturn SC-2. She's got over 100,000 miles on her and she still runs like new. And she looks great too. Made by UAW workers in Springhill Tenn.
Before that I drove an 83 Honda Prelude. Beautiful car yes, but despite all the rave reviews it got, that car kept breaking down. Problems included the electrical system, the timing belt, the engine itself was replaced.
After that I wanted to try the American made Saturn. Over the last 11 years there have been problems but nothing major.
I have never regretted buying this car and would buy a new one in a heartbeat.
If the American car companies could all build a car like the one I own, they wouldn't have the problems they are having now.
In anycase, the double standard that is held to the big three over the banking institutions is sickening.
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Tough pie to slice. I just feel for the little guys, the working-class slobs (in the good sense of the word).
I still vote NO though.
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No they shouldn't. Factories don't disappear when companies go bankrupt.
Banks had to be saved because letting the financial system collapse is like letting roads or water or electricity suddenly stop working. The automakers are just companies. Other companies will just make more cars to pick up the slack if need be.
The focus should be on helping workers who may lose their jobs and ensuring that factories get repurposed.
No one owes those shithead companies anything, and the country doesn't need them either. I do want a Chevy Volt though.
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All the automakers are struggling right now. The reason we should help GM is because it is essentially the lodestone of manufacturing in America. The loss of all those union jobs would be a huge blow. In the 1980's, the federal government loaned Lee Iacoca money to bailout Chrysler and he paid back the money with interest. Don't give up on American auto industry, ladies and gentlemen. We don't want to be a country that puts all our eggs in the service and healthcare baskets.
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GM going bankrupt doesn't mean that its factories will vanish. Something actually productive might be done with them. For instance, one of the 8 foreign car makers that build cars in the US, employing around 100,000 people, might buy them.
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Even though it doesn't appeal to my sense of fairness or justice, I have to side with the bailout.
If those companies tank, then the repercussions would be terrible. Even beyond the layoff in their own backyard, the automotive industry's money props up most of the other US industries out there.
For instance, if they cut their advertising budget, that means media, art foundations, television networks, and publications will have their knees kicked out from beneath them (worse then they already are), and will have to start laying more people off. Most of everyone on this forum is a creative of some kind and that means we'll have the hardest time finding work.
That having been said, I think a bailout should definitely have a sunset attached to it. If, by a certain time, it doesn't look like the money's helping, then it would be time to turn off the tap.
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Good gosh. Where is everyone's national pride? The USA, Detroit, Mo Town. Hello? This stuff should be hard wired into all of you.
Detroit makes great cars, they've made some legendary cars, they should be saved. The US car companies are as much a part of our American life as WFMU and The Best Show.
You know, every year WFMU comes around with it's hand out asking for help. We don't turn away asking why they can't turn a profit?
We help them out. Same thing with the car companies.
If you can stand to see the companies that produced the Mustang, The Thunderbird, The GTO, The Corvette, The Barracuda, The Imperial (The Green Hornet based his Black Beauty on this car), The Charger, yes even the Duster and the Dart, just go out of business, than I think it's a sad day for America.
Canada doesn't mind bailing the American factories on their side of the border. Nor does Germany or Japan have a problem supporting their own manufacturers.
We need to help out Detroit. They were there for us. They have made great cars and they've made us the envy of the world. We should be there for them.
And all you naysayers might want to pony up and buy a fine American automobile.
Keep this in mind. If the Bush Administration had mandated CAFE standards instead of giving corporations a free ride American car companies would have been forced to build cars that whole world would want to buy.
Of course the real issue here is that our car companies have to cover the cost of health care of their workers. Something they do not have to do in Canada, England, Korea, Germany, or Japan. Those health cost are built right into the sticker price of each car Detroit rolls out.
If all those right wing pin head senators really were serious about making Detroit competitive, they'd be introducing universal health care bills. But that's not what this is all about, is it? It's all about busting the UAW and with it organized labor in the USA.
The whole thing stinks and it is un American.
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I have a Saturn and it's a chintzy piece of garbage.
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Year and model plz.
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Contrary to what most people say, the American car is still the finest in the world. I drive a 97 Saturn SC-2. She's got over 100,000 miles on her and she still runs like new. And she looks great too. Made by UAW workers in Springhill Tenn.
Glad you've had a good experience, when I found out my '96 SW1 had a cracked cylinder head due to casting flaws known and hidden by general motors I kind of lost my enthusiasm for the brand. Google "saturn cracked head" to see all the happy saturn owners. Too bad, I enjoyed the car otherwise but thankfully we kept my wifes Geo Prizm instead which has been bulletproof. Now there's a GM product to get behind, one designed by Toyota.
My dad works on the assembly line at GM, and I worked there briefly. I saw a lot of good people working hard, as well as a lot of people feeling entitled to the benefits of the job without doing any work. The problem I saw was the union defending both groups of people in equal measure. At the same time, I worked in a GE assembly plant for a few years and saw the exploitative efforts of management on a workforce with a weaker union so I can appreciate what the UAW does on the whole. I think the companies are worth saving but upper management should be cleaned out and labor needs to make some concessions.
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This is the point,
If all those right wing pin head senators really were serious about making Detroit competitive, they'd be introducing universal health care bills. But that's not what this is all about, is it? It's all about busting the UAW and with it organized labor in the USA.
The whole thing stinks...
...no matter where you come down on quality of American made cars or wether the big three should be bailed out...not to mention environmental concerns and speculative oil prices scaring the s*#t out of consumers...no kidding they can't move vehicles like they did in the past. It's time to invest in public transport systems and alternative renewable energy resources.
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Year and model plz.
2003 Ion. I bought it new and it had several recalls and defects. Now I'm just irritated by the shoddy quality of everything. Cheap plastic.
I don't intend to ever buy another car until I am forced to, though. I hate cars.
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Well thank God we've got a new administration coming in that will address the issues of public transportation and the environment.
As for Break's experience with Saturn, I would say that is the result of poor management decisions coming on down from GM.
I think that Saturn truly put out a car that rivals any Japanese import. Unfortunately, the bean counters at GM always win out. According to that Google search, that was 100,000 cars built in 1996.
The right thing for Saturn to have done would have been to replace the bad part. Luckily, I guess they corrected that problem by 1997.
I also think that Saturn could have marketed their cars better to be more competitive with the Japanese. I had to load my car up with all sort of options that were standard in the Japanese counterparts. Options like a sunfoof, ABS/Traction, A/C, stereo am/fm cd.
Despite that, I still went for the Saturn. And in 11 years, I never regretted it.
Should the big 3 be saved? I say yes.
Should they radically change the way their companies are run. Again I say yes.
We can't let Detroit die.
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The Ion. That's the car that replaced the S car. From what I read on Saturn forums, the Ion never lived up to the legacy of the S car. It was built when Saturn became a GM line instead of a separate car company. That meant Saturn was basically the same as Buick, Chevy, and Cadillac.
I remember the Saturn Salesman boasting about how Saturn was separate from GM and that they did not share technology.
I believe that Detroit may have been mismanaged over the years but they do have the potential to build a superior car. I look at my experience with Saturn as evidence of this.
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GM going bankrupt doesn't mean that its factories will vanish. Something actually productive might be done with them. For instance, one of the 8 foreign car makers that build cars in the US, employing around 100,000 people, might buy them.
Any other time and I'd be right there with you. Right now, I think they'd just die.
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Good gosh. Where is everyone's national pride? The USA, Detroit, Mo Town. Hello? This stuff should be hard wired into all of you.
Detroit makes great cars, they've made some legendary cars, they should be saved. The US car companies are as much a part of our American life as WFMU and The Best Show.
You know, every year WFMU comes around with it's hand out asking for help. We don't turn away asking why they can't turn a profit?
We help them out. Same thing with the car companies.
This is a horrible analogy and it's too early in the morning for me to shoot all the holes in it that need to be shot into it. Shot with a gun of logic and reason!
If you can stand to see the companies that produced the Mustang, The Thunderbird, The GTO, The Corvette, The Barracuda, The Imperial (The Green Hornet based his Black Beauty on this car), The Charger, yes even the Duster and the Dart, just go out of business, than I think it's a sad day for America.
But we're not, those companies no longer exist. Oh wait, the Bumblebee Camaro and Saleen Mustang turn your fancy - then you're a jerk. The phrase "what have you done for me lately" comes to mind, and as stated elsewhere in this thread, just because those companies go tits up doesn't mean the factories can't be put to good use. Build more Civics and less Denali's, I says.
I agree that the country would take a pretty big hit if all the US automakers went under, but it'd be an awfully good object lesson if they did, and admittedly completely deserved as well - which is why I voted to let em sink. Of course, that's why I ain't no brainy politician either, yeah?
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I really hate cars, to a degree that I think is probably pretty irrational. I have never owned one, hope to never have to own one, and believe that the auto industry is just about the single most destructive force that we've known in the last 50 years. Besides the environmental damage, they've made our towns and cities ugly and unlivable, destroyed public transit infrastructure, and - oh yeah - killed about 30 000 Americans a year.
So no, I don't think the U.S. government should be bailing them out. There's plenty of productive work that our culture could be doing instead of sinking more money into a dying industry whose time has passed.
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Also, all this Saturn talk is akin to TE calling Wyclef the, and I quote - "bestest rapper that ever lived, ever"*. Yikes.
* May not be an actual quote.
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I can't tell which post is sarcastic anymore. The issue isn't "who makes the best cars," it's that the auto industry has become so woven into every fabric of our economy, that if they bankrupt, everything else will start to stumble.
It's unfortunate that this is happening after the shoddy bank bailout, and I think that alot of people at the top of these ladders should be jailed, but this is a little bigger than being pissed because your car doesn't turn over in the cold.
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This seems like blackmail to me. "Think of the jobs! Think of the ramifications! Think of the people!" It's like that GNR song Civil War. I really don't think that Axl Rose cares about genocide, hunger, and poverty, just like the owners of these car companies don't care about people. If they did, they wouldn't have been making such shoddy products for so long. I read a paper in my philosophy of law class by John Hospers, who was the first presidential candidate for the Libertarian party. While I do not agree with his views, I found it interesting when he denounced state sponsored "fake" jobs that exist solely for the sake of providing a person a means of sustaining themselves. Millions of Americans work fake jobs in another sense in that they work in superfluous and frivolous industries. If the economy continues to be bad, which I imagine it will be, we're going to see a lot more sub-par and unnecessary companies go away. Manufacturers of 3rd rate potato chips and I-pod accessories are going to be having a hard time!
(The fact that business is America's #1 major is an indication of this problem. Business is all about making money, which is fine, but I imagine it would be better both for the people and for the businesses if there were more innovators and people working to improve and maintain our quality of life, such as teachers, doctors, social workers, etc.)
Bailing out the auto companies seems counter-intuitive. Instead of forcing companies to be innovative, we're going to help out companies who refused to make products that would be best for the people and instead choose to make products that were the best at filling their wallets. Perhaps these companies going under will encourage innovation. Or perhaps these company's resources can be used to encourage innovation. I'd much rather see the money help the people directly instead of keeping these companies in business. Maybe money can be used to create other opportunities for the employees to find both employment and to improve the country, which I know is part of Obama's plan to re-build America's infrastructure.
I find it interesting that so many people were waving the banner of free-market capitalism and competition, but the minute they start losing they begin to abandon their ideologies.
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You know, every year WFMU comes around with it's hand out asking for help. We don't turn away asking why they can't turn a profit?
We help them out. Same thing with the car companies.
I really hope this was not meant to be serious because it's a specious comparison. You can't compare the two - one is a for-profit and one is a charity/not-for-profit. You can't blame WFMU for asking for listener support because they're a LISTENER-SUPPORTED entity. That's how the station is funded. They're not attempting to make a profit or appease stockholders. They're not selling a product or service as their primary means of existence (it's true that they do sell merchandise, but this is also done in the service of staying financially solvent rather than attempting to make a profit). GM is a for-profit entity - they're supposed to be supporting themselves (and, theoretically, making a profit and appeasing stockholders) through their everyday operations.
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Also people voluntarily give to WFMU. Anyone who wants to voluntarily give to GM or Chrysler should feel free. (I've already donated to Mennen this year so I'm tapped.)
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Having said that, I still voted "Yes" because my father-in-law is a GM retiree and if the company goes bankrupt or is forced to cut retiree health benefits and/or pension payments they are f-u-c-k-e-d. And as much as I like them, I sure as shit don't want them moving in with us.
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Having said that, I still voted "Yes" because my father-in-law is a GM retiree and if the company goes bankrupt or is forced to cut retiree health benefits and/or pension payments they are f-u-c-k-e-d. And as much as I like them, I sure as shit don't want them moving in with us.
I approve of your selfishness, MoS!
I don't approve of the bailout.
I will never buy an American car, unless they turn around a make a decent one. I've owned Japanese and German cars, and I've spent a good amount of time driving a bunch of different American cars, and there is no comparison whatsoever. Saturn is a brilliant marketing campaign and they (were) wonderful at providing an uncharacteristic family atmosphere, which I appreciate, but their cars are and were plastic junk.
I drove a Hyundai SUV out in Vegas and that was a decent car, too. Buying a subpar automobile because it's patriotic doesn't help, even discounting the fact that most of the Japanese cars sold in America are made in Ohio, South Carolina, or Tennessee.
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Good gosh. Where is everyone's national pride? The USA, Detroit, Mo Town. Hello? This stuff should be hard wired into all of you.
Detroit makes great cars, they've made some legendary cars, they should be saved. The US car companies are as much a part of our American life as WFMU and The Best Show.
I used to drive a '93 Ford Taurus. It was the biggest hunk of garbage I've ever operated. I now drive an '03 Honda Civic. It is reliable and efficient.
It's probably because of when I was born, but my "national pride" has nothing to do with cars or automakers or any industry. As far back as I can remember, American cars were considered inferior to foreign cars. If I were born in the 1950s, when cars looked cool and sounded cool, I'm sure my attitude would be different.
Yesno's idea of putting the bailout money towards the autoworkers instead of the automakers makes sense to me. Even if the automakers get the money, which I'm sure they will, it won't be long before they are either asking for more money or closing shop altogether.
Antiquated corporations that produce cheap plastic junk deserve to fail. The fact that they exist is why capitalism is bad. The fact that they fail and are replaced by better producers is why capitalism is good. Let's not fight the good capitalism.
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Maybe the government should invest the billions that will go to bailing out a dying industry into advancing public transportation.
Our infrastructure is extremely weak. We have no high speed trains. The trains we do have are not nearly as efficient as they should be. We're about twenty years behind the rest of the developed world when it comes to public transportation.
Why not spend the public's money where the public can use it? Why not invest in trains and buses so that we won't need as many cars?
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A.M. Thomas is feeling feistily Schumpeterian this evening.
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A.M. Thomas is feeling feistily Schumpeterian this evening.
I had to look up who Joseph Schumpeter is, but yes, the direction our economy is headed definitely makes me feel like a Schumpeterian.
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I feel feistily Schpeterian about this subject too, and appalled that we have neither a domestic auto industry producing cars that many people want to buy, nor respectable high-speed rail service, yet have an air travel network that is absolutely rage-inducing. Buses -- forget it.
I'm really, really torn about this bailout thing, with both strong feelings pro and strong feelings against. Against Big 3 management and pro-Big 3 employees, in short, but sorting out my thoughts is more complicated than that. Hence I posted the poll. I was curious to what others believe -- assuming that this is probably a fairly socially liberal but fiscally maybe moderate-to-liberal group? I'm guessing here.
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Maybe the government should invest the billions that will go to bailing out a dying industry into advancing public transportation.
Our infrastructure is extremely weak. We have no high speed trains. The trains we do have are not nearly as efficient as they should be. We're about twenty years behind the rest of the developed world when it comes to public transportation.
Why not spend the public's money where the public can use it? Why not invest in trains and buses so that we won't need as many cars?
Why not do both? That's the current plan as I understand it. Bail out auto companies for the time being, then work as fast as possible to create better infrastructure. But there's no need to make things any worse than they already are.
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I think that somewhere in the mid to late 90's American Car companies started putting out a superior product. I can remember reading articles in Consumer Reports at the time pointing out that Detroit's products where finally coming close to their Japanese rivals. The car makers had embraced the Japanese model of mass production. That is one of the reasons I went for the Saturn. And my bad experience with my Honda Prelude.
Like I wrote earlier, my Saturn is a great car and I don't for one minute regret buying it. A much more reliable car than the Honda.
I get the feeling that Detroit went back to their old bad habits, producing a shoddy product. Also the fact that they put more money into producing the bigger Hummers and the like.
I feel that Detroit should be saved but there must be restructuring. Detroit has to build cars that people want to buy again. When they put out a popular car like the recent Mustang or Charger those cars are everywhere. People buy them. But these are few and far between.
Detroit boardrooms need some new thinking.
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Very interesting and on-point article in yesterday's New York Times about the Pontiac G8.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/14/automobiles/autoreviews/14pontiac-g8.html (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/14/automobiles/autoreviews/14pontiac-g8.html)
I rent cars a lot for business trips, and get to experience a lot of bad cars and some positive surprises. I've rented Mustangs and G6s and Ford Focuses, as well as dinosaurs like Crown Victorias. Toyotas, Hyundais, Nissans, Mitsubishis, Cadillacs, etc.
I tend to agree that Detroit doesn't get the credit with American consumers that it deserves for a number of its cars. I think that's due to the residual effect of years of producing inferior products with lower reliability, but also years of turning out legions of SUVs and pickups while de-emphasizing its sedans. Whatever the case, the Big 3 are left with languishing reputations and millions of American consumers who now won't even consider walking into a GM, Ford or Chrysler showroom for so much as a test drive.
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I tend to agree that Detroit doesn't get the credit with American consumers that it deserves for a number of its cars. I think that's due to the residual effect of years of producing inferior products with lower reliability, but also years of turning out legions of SUVs and pickups while de-emphasizing its sedans. Whatever the case, the Big 3 are left with languishing reputations and millions of American consumers who now won't even consider walking into a GM, Ford or Chrysler showroom for so much as a test drive.
When we recently had to buy a new car, there were a couple of cars that fit into our criteria - one was a Toyota and one a Ford. We test-drove both (my wife's father retired from Ford, so the family discount was actually an incentive for us to go with the Ford) and the Ford was noticeably subpar to the Toyota, even in the 10-15 minutes of our test-drive. Not to mention the large gap in safety ratings and the like in Consumer Reports.
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i dont understand HaroldBlvd's love affair with detroit, but at any rate, im tired of feeding money to big companies, period.
and ive got to throw my two cents in about shoe at the WFMU comparison: what?!
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I just believe that Detroit is capable of greatness. That it's been mismanaged for years is fucked up, but given a good strong restructuring, Detroit will rise to greatness again.
Aside from that, I've had a very bad experience with a supposedly top rated Japanese car, and a very good experience with an American made car.
As for my comparison of WFMU to The Big Three, look at it this way. WFMU is without a doubt the greatest radio station in the nation.
I dropped a mouse pledge on them to keep them going. I don't care that I don't listen to many of it's programs. The ones I listen to are great radio.
Likewise, the Big Three are capable of making great cars. Maybe they make a lot of junk but the great cars they produce are top notch.
When these companies say they need help or they will go out of business I say that it is the American thing to do to help them out.
Nevermind the possibility of triggering a great depression. We just can't throw millions of people out of work and kill organized labor just because their bosses are assholes.
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I just believe that Detroit is capable of greatness. That it's been mismanaged for years is fucked up, but given a good strong restructuring, Detroit will rise to greatness again.
Aside from that, I've had a very bad experience with a supposedly top rated Japanese car, and a very good experience with an American made car.
As for my comparison of WFMU to The Big Three, look at it this way. WFMU is without a doubt the greatest radio station in the nation.
I dropped a mouse pledge on them to keep them going. I don't care that I don't listen to many of it's programs. The ones I listen to are great radio.
Likewise, the Big Three are capable of making great cars. Maybe they make a lot of junk but the great cars they produce are top notch.
When these companies say they need help or they will go out of business I say that it is the American thing to do to help them out.
Nevermind the possibility of triggering a great depression. We just can't throw millions of people out of work and kill organized labor just because their bosses are assholes.
Are the assholes you're talking about the corporations they are working for or the corrupt union bosses?
As for this one completely subjective experience of yours that you keep going back to, Consumer Reports sees things differently. Here are the ranking (from highest to lowest) of cars in 3 major categories. Detroits showing is embarassing.
Small Cars
Hyundai Elantra SE
Honda Civic EX (AT)
Mazda3 AT
Honda Civic Hybrid
Subaru Impreza 2.5i
Toyota Corolla
Hyundai Elantra GLS
Ford Focus AT
Mitsubishi Lancer ES
Honda Civic GX CNG
Nissan Sentra 2.0 S
Kia Spectra AT
Chevrolet Cobalt LT
Chevrolet Aveo Sedan LT
Minivans
Toyota Sienna FWD
Honda Odyssey
Toyota Sienna AWD
Kia Sedona
Hyundai Entourage
Nissan Quest
Chrysler Town & Country Limited
Dodge Grand Caravan SXT
Family Sedans
Nissan Altima V6
Honda Accord V6
Honda Accord 4-cyl. MT
Toyota Camry V6
Volkswagen Passat 4-cyl.
Nissan Altima 4-cyl.
Volkswagen Jetta TDI
Toyota Camry Hybrid
Hyundai Sonata V6
Chevrolet Malibu V6
Mazda6 V6
Toyota Prius Touring
Honda Accord 4-cyl. AT
Nissan Altima Hybrid
Kia Optima 4-cyl.
Mercury Milan V6
Toyota Camry 4-cyl.
Ford Fusion V6
Hyundai Sonata 4-cyl.
Volkswagen Jetta 2.5
Subaru Legacy GT
Kia Optima V6
Chevrolet Malibu 4-cyl.
Chevrolet Malibu Hybrid
Mazda6 4-cyl.
Saturn Aura XR V6
Mercury Milan 4-cyl.
Ford Fusion 4-cyl.
Toyota Prius Base
Saturn Aura XE 4-cyl.
Chevrolet Impala
Mitsubishi Galant V6
Volvo S40
Mitsubishi Galant 4-cyl.
Pontiac G6 V6
Buick LaCrosse
Pontiac G6 4-cyl.
Chrysler Sebring V6
Dodge Avenger
Chrysler Sebring 4-cyl.
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Why not have the banks loan the money to the car companies? As I understand it, the TARP funds are there to encourage the banks to start lending money again. Why aren't they stepping up here? Isn't this what banks are for?
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As for my comparison of WFMU to The Big Three, look at it this way. WFMU is without a doubt the greatest radio station in the nation.
I dropped a mouse pledge on them to keep them going. I don't care that I don't listen to many of it's programs. The ones I listen to are great radio.
Likewise, the Big Three are capable of making great cars. Maybe they make a lot of junk but the great cars they produce are top notch.
When these companies say they need help or they will go out of business I say that it is the American thing to do to help them out.
Nevermind the possibility of triggering a great depression. We just can't throw millions of people out of work and kill organized labor just because their bosses are assholes.
im not throwing anybody out on the street. i cant save the world, and im certainly not responsible for some rich bonehead who couldnt run his company appropriately. this isnt Tommy Boy. not to mention, there are a lot of people to point fingers at here, including corruption in the union system (which started out as a good thing a long time ago and has now become as greedy as the corporations).
also, WFMU is volunteer run, if their bank account runs dry, no one is put out on the street. i continue to sleep good at nite knowing i contributed to a "service" i get to enjoy for free otherwise despite its demise at any point in the future.
its obvious we disagree on this and thats fine- i'll respect your opinion as your own and i dont care what car you drive- but youve got to knock off the WFMU analogy, you could not be more wrong.
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As for my comparison of WFMU to The Big Three, look at it this way. WFMU is without a doubt the greatest radio station in the nation.
Likewise, the Big Three are capable of making great cars. Maybe they make a lot of junk but the great cars they produce are top notch.
its obvious we disagree on this and thats fine- i'll respect your opinion as your own and i dont care what car you drive- but youve got to knock off the WFMU analogy, you could not be more wrong.
I totally saw Joe Belock chopping a car on Kennedy Blvd. this morning.