POLL: General Motors Bailout

[A.M. Thomas]

A.M. Thomas is feeling feistily Schumpeterian this evening.

I had to look up who Joseph Schumpeter is, but yes, the direction our economy is headed definitely makes me feel like a Schumpeterian.

[Fido]

I feel feistily Schpeterian about this subject too, and appalled that we have neither a domestic auto industry producing cars that many people want to buy, nor respectable high-speed rail service, yet have an air travel network that is absolutely rage-inducing. Buses -- forget it.

I'm really, really torn about this bailout thing, with both strong feelings pro and strong feelings against. Against Big 3 management and pro-Big 3 employees, in short, but sorting out my thoughts is more complicated than that. Hence I posted the poll. I was curious to what others believe -- assuming that this is probably a fairly socially liberal but fiscally maybe moderate-to-liberal group? I'm guessing here.

[wwwes]

Maybe the government should invest the billions that will go to bailing out a dying industry into advancing public transportation.

Our infrastructure is extremely weak.  We have no high speed trains.  The trains we do have are not nearly as efficient as they should be.  We're about twenty years behind the rest of the developed world when it comes to public transportation.

Why not spend the public's money where the public can use it?  Why not invest in trains and buses so that we won't need as many cars?

Why not do both? That's the current plan as I understand it. Bail out auto companies for the time being, then work as fast as possible to create better infrastructure. But there's no need to make things any worse than they already are.

[HaroldBlvd]

I think that somewhere in the mid to late 90's American Car companies started putting out a superior product. I can remember reading articles in Consumer Reports at the time pointing out that Detroit's products where finally coming close to their Japanese rivals. The car makers had embraced the Japanese model of mass production. That is one of the reasons I went for the Saturn. And my bad experience with my Honda Prelude.

Like I wrote earlier, my Saturn is a great car and I don't for one minute regret buying it. A much more reliable car than the Honda.

I get the feeling that Detroit went back to their old bad habits, producing a shoddy product. Also the fact that they put more money into producing the bigger Hummers and the like.

I feel that Detroit should be saved but there must be  restructuring. Detroit has to build cars that people want to buy again. When they put out a popular car like the recent Mustang or Charger those cars are everywhere. People buy them.  But these are few and far between.
Detroit boardrooms need some new thinking.

[Fido]

Very interesting and on-point article in yesterday's New York Times about the Pontiac G8.
 
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/14/automobiles/autoreviews/14pontiac-g8.html

I rent cars a lot for business trips, and get to experience a lot of bad cars and some positive surprises. I've rented Mustangs and G6s and Ford Focuses, as well as dinosaurs like Crown Victorias. Toyotas, Hyundais, Nissans, Mitsubishis, Cadillacs, etc.

I tend to agree that Detroit doesn't get the credit with American consumers that it deserves for a number of its cars. I think that's due to the residual effect of years of producing inferior products with lower reliability, but also years of turning out legions of SUVs and pickups while de-emphasizing its sedans. Whatever the case, the Big 3 are left with languishing reputations and millions of American consumers who now won't even consider walking into a GM, Ford or Chrysler showroom for so much as a test drive.

[masterofsparks]

I tend to agree that Detroit doesn't get the credit with American consumers that it deserves for a number of its cars. I think that's due to the residual effect of years of producing inferior products with lower reliability, but also years of turning out legions of SUVs and pickups while de-emphasizing its sedans. Whatever the case, the Big 3 are left with languishing reputations and millions of American consumers who now won't even consider walking into a GM, Ford or Chrysler showroom for so much as a test drive.

When we recently had to buy a new car, there were a couple of cars that fit into our criteria - one was a Toyota and one a Ford. We test-drove both (my wife's father retired from Ford, so the family discount was actually an incentive for us to go with the Ford) and the Ford was noticeably subpar to the Toyota, even in the 10-15 minutes of our test-drive. Not to mention the large gap in safety ratings and the like in Consumer Reports.

[iAmBaronVonTito]

i dont understand HaroldBlvd's love affair with detroit, but at any rate, im tired of feeding money to big companies, period.  

and ive got to throw my two cents in about shoe at the WFMU comparison: what?!

[HaroldBlvd]

I just believe that Detroit is capable of greatness. That it's been mismanaged for years is fucked up, but given a good strong restructuring, Detroit will rise to greatness again.

Aside from that, I've had a very bad experience with a supposedly top rated Japanese car, and a very good experience with an American made car.

As for my comparison of WFMU to The Big Three, look at it this way. WFMU is without a doubt the greatest radio station in the nation.
I dropped a mouse pledge on them to keep them going. I don't care that I don't listen to many of it's programs. The ones I listen to are great radio.

Likewise, the Big Three are capable of making great cars. Maybe they make a lot of junk but the great cars they produce are top notch.

When these companies say they need help or they will go out of business I say that it is the American thing to do to help them out.
Nevermind the possibility of triggering a great depression. We just can't throw millions of people out of work and kill organized labor just because their bosses are assholes.

[Andy]

I just believe that Detroit is capable of greatness. That it's been mismanaged for years is fucked up, but given a good strong restructuring, Detroit will rise to greatness again.

Aside from that, I've had a very bad experience with a supposedly top rated Japanese car, and a very good experience with an American made car.

As for my comparison of WFMU to The Big Three, look at it this way. WFMU is without a doubt the greatest radio station in the nation.
I dropped a mouse pledge on them to keep them going. I don't care that I don't listen to many of it's programs. The ones I listen to are great radio.

Likewise, the Big Three are capable of making great cars. Maybe they make a lot of junk but the great cars they produce are top notch.

When these companies say they need help or they will go out of business I say that it is the American thing to do to help them out.
Nevermind the possibility of triggering a great depression. We just can't throw millions of people out of work and kill organized labor just because their bosses are assholes.

Are the assholes you're talking about the corporations they are working for or the corrupt union bosses?

As for this one completely subjective experience of yours that you keep going back to, Consumer Reports sees things differently.  Here are the ranking (from highest to lowest) of cars in 3 major categories. Detroits showing is embarassing.

Small Cars

Hyundai Elantra SE
Honda Civic EX (AT)
Mazda3 AT
Honda Civic Hybrid
Subaru Impreza 2.5i
Toyota Corolla
Hyundai Elantra GLS
Ford Focus AT
Mitsubishi Lancer ES
Honda Civic GX CNG
Nissan Sentra 2.0 S
Kia Spectra AT
Chevrolet Cobalt LT
Chevrolet Aveo Sedan LT

Minivans

Toyota Sienna FWD
Honda Odyssey
Toyota Sienna AWD
Kia Sedona
Hyundai Entourage
Nissan Quest
Chrysler Town & Country Limited
Dodge Grand Caravan SXT

Family Sedans

Nissan Altima V6
Honda Accord V6
Honda Accord 4-cyl. MT
Toyota Camry V6
Volkswagen Passat 4-cyl.
Nissan Altima 4-cyl.
Volkswagen Jetta TDI
Toyota Camry Hybrid
Hyundai Sonata V6
Chevrolet Malibu V6
Mazda6 V6
Toyota Prius Touring
Honda Accord 4-cyl. AT
Nissan Altima Hybrid
Kia Optima 4-cyl.
Mercury Milan V6
Toyota Camry 4-cyl.
Ford Fusion V6
Hyundai Sonata 4-cyl.
Volkswagen Jetta 2.5
Subaru Legacy GT
Kia Optima V6
Chevrolet Malibu 4-cyl.
Chevrolet Malibu Hybrid
Mazda6 4-cyl.
Saturn Aura XR V6
Mercury Milan 4-cyl.
Ford Fusion 4-cyl.
Toyota Prius Base
Saturn Aura XE 4-cyl.
Chevrolet Impala
Mitsubishi Galant V6
Volvo S40
Mitsubishi Galant 4-cyl.
Pontiac G6 V6
Buick LaCrosse
Pontiac G6 4-cyl.
Chrysler Sebring V6
Dodge Avenger
Chrysler Sebring 4-cyl.

[pscan]

Why not have the banks loan the money to the car companies? As I understand it, the TARP funds are there to encourage the banks to start lending money again. Why aren't they stepping up here? Isn't this what banks are for?

[iAmBaronVonTito]

As for my comparison of WFMU to The Big Three, look at it this way. WFMU is without a doubt the greatest radio station in the nation.
I dropped a mouse pledge on them to keep them going. I don't care that I don't listen to many of it's programs. The ones I listen to are great radio.

Likewise, the Big Three are capable of making great cars. Maybe they make a lot of junk but the great cars they produce are top notch.

When these companies say they need help or they will go out of business I say that it is the American thing to do to help them out.
Nevermind the possibility of triggering a great depression. We just can't throw millions of people out of work and kill organized labor just because their bosses are assholes.

im not throwing anybody out on the street.  i cant save the world, and im certainly not responsible for some rich bonehead who couldnt run his company appropriately.  this isnt Tommy Boy.  not to mention, there are a lot of people to point fingers at here, including corruption in the union system (which started out as a good thing a long time ago and has now become as greedy as the corporations).  

also, WFMU is volunteer run, if their bank account runs dry, no one is put out on the street.  i continue to sleep good at nite knowing i contributed to a "service" i get to enjoy for free otherwise despite its demise at any point in the future.  

its obvious we disagree on this and thats fine- i'll respect your opinion as your own and i dont care what car you drive- but youve got to knock off the WFMU analogy, you could not be more wrong.  

[theyellowchair]

As for my comparison of WFMU to The Big Three, look at it this way. WFMU is without a doubt the greatest radio station in the nation.
Likewise, the Big Three are capable of making great cars. Maybe they make a lot of junk but the great cars they produce are top notch.

its obvious we disagree on this and thats fine- i'll respect your opinion as your own and i dont care what car you drive- but youve got to knock off the WFMU analogy, you could not be more wrong.  

I totally saw Joe Belock chopping a car on Kennedy Blvd. this morning.