Author Topic: PATRIOT Act: zing!  (Read 6961 times)

Andy

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Re: PATRIOT Act: zing!
« Reply #15 on: November 16, 2007, 11:41:21 AM »
Is that seriously his wife?  She looks like she could be his daughter.
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dave from knoxville

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Re: PATRIOT Act: zing!
« Reply #16 on: November 16, 2007, 11:42:51 AM »
The first hottie!

Sarah

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Re: PATRIOT Act: zing!
« Reply #17 on: November 16, 2007, 11:50:03 AM »
"She's a New Age, Tongue-Pierced Brit . . ."  Thirty-one years younger than he.

Shaggy 2 Grote

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Re: PATRIOT Act: zing!
« Reply #18 on: November 16, 2007, 12:07:43 PM »
What do you all think about Ron Paul?

I admire him like a person, and even though I don't truck much with Libertarianism as an actionable philosophy, I have to admit that I admire his ideological coherence.  The modern-day GOP seems to have combined all of the worst aspects of modern governments - the patronage and corruption of the old Democratic machines, the stinginess and cruelty of the old GOP, the 2+2 = 5 illogic of communism and plain old race-baiting and religious fundamentalism (I have no illusions about the Democrats, either, but that's another story).  I appreciate the fact that Paul possesses the courage of his convictions and generally seems like an honest and ethical guy.  But he's also emblematic of  the delusional nature of the internets - from the dot-com casino mania to the blogger egotism of Web 2.0 to long, melodramatic, narcissistic AST posts, the whole enterprise seems marked by an inflated sense of importance.  Not that the web, or Ron Paul, aren't legitimate or important, but they're important in a sort of aggregate way, which brings me to:

I hate to get all serious on ya'lls, but until a Presidential election is won by a single vote, every vote ever cast has been a throwaway vote, in the sense that the outcome of the election would not have been changed if you had chosen not to vote. Now GROUPS of voters, there's something there, but your individual vote? About as much value as a "YOU'VE been JAMESED".

I think getting Jamesed is pretty important, Dave.  Actually, though, this connects with the above because voting, like the web, or any other democratic system, is all about tiny bits and bites and how they affect the larger picture.  I don't entirely buy Malcolm Gladwell's concept of The Tipping Point or Chris Anderson's The Long Tail - they both strike me as business-seminar, high-concept buzz-phrases - but there is something to those concepts.  These tiny niches and individual actions matter.  Isn't there some kind of cool chaos-theory mathematical model that explains  how little unrelated events and actions lead up to larger, incredibly complex phenomena?  Come on Dave, let's team up and bore the rest of the board into a coma.
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Sarah

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Re: PATRIOT Act: zing!
« Reply #19 on: November 16, 2007, 12:18:58 PM »
Get a room, boys.  This is making me blush.

Gilly

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Re: PATRIOT Act: zing!
« Reply #20 on: November 16, 2007, 12:25:50 PM »
I don't really get how you can associate Ron Paul with that group. He's a legitimate politician using the internet to gain support. Lumping him into a group that consists of bloggers and forum users isn't right. I guess I can understand the delusional part...but it's a different kind of delusional that just happened to bring technology along for the ride. It will be interesting to see if the media and the public give him a fighting chance.

Also, Kucinich doesn't stand a chance and although I agree with Dave (that one vote doesn't really matter) it would kind of be a waste to vote for him. Some people run just to shape the ideas of the eventual front runners and Kucinich is one of those guys. I'm sure he'd love to be president but I'd be shocked if he actually thought he had a shot. He's just an idea maker and he's needed in the debates to shape the eventual Democratic candidate's views on Iraq.

Laurie

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Re: PATRIOT Act: zing!
« Reply #21 on: November 16, 2007, 12:55:53 PM »
In Shirley MacLaine's new book, she recalls the time Dennis Kucinich saw a UFO. Kucinich does not deny seeing a UFO.  ???

Josh

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Re: PATRIOT Act: zing!
« Reply #22 on: November 16, 2007, 12:58:37 PM »
Um, Kucinich was mayor of Cleveland. NUFF SAID!
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Chris L

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Re: PATRIOT Act: zing!
« Reply #23 on: November 16, 2007, 01:09:56 PM »
In Shirley MacLaine's new book, she recalls the time Dennis Kucinich saw a UFO. Kucinich does not deny seeing a UFO.  ???

He should call himself a "ghost hunter."  People seem to eat that shit up. 

dave from knoxville

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Re: PATRIOT Act: zing!
« Reply #24 on: November 16, 2007, 01:11:19 PM »
I'm just saying, campaign your hearts out and you can have a huge impact on political races, but when it comes time to cast your own vote, it's insignificant. Far too many people are too hyped up about their own vote, but if you don't bother to enter into the politcal process, you're deluding yourself if you think the act of casting a vote matters.

    Another important aspect in dealing with systems is that systems can be modeled. In other words, systems can be created which will theoretically replicate the behavior of the original system. Following the pile of stones example, one could take a second group of stones which are identical to the first group, pile them in exactly the same way as the first group, and predict that they will fall down into the exact same configuration as the first group. Similiarly, a mathematical model, based upon Newton's law of gravity, could be used to predict how piles of same and different types will interact. Generally speaking, mathematical modeleing is the key to modeling systems, although it is not the only way.

    The second term, nonlinear, has to do with the type of mathematical model used to describe a system. Until the recent growth of interest in chaos theory, hence nonlinear systems, most models were analyzed as though they were linear systems. In other words, when the mathematical models were draw in a graph format, the results appeared as a straight line. Calculus was Netwon's mathematical method for showing change in systems within the context of a straigt line and statistics, regression analysis in particular, is a process of converting nonlinear data into a linear format for further analysis and prediction.

    Linear systems are easy to generate and simple to work with. That is because they are very predictable. For example, you could think of a factory as a linear system. We could predict that if we add a certain number of people, or a certain amount of inventory to the factory, that we will increase the number of pieces produced by the factory by a comparable amount. As most managers know, factories don't operate this way. Changing the number of people, inventory, or any other variable in the factory and you receive widely differing results on a day to day basis from what would be predicted from a linear model. This is true because a factory is actually a nonlinear system, as are most systems found in life. When systems in nature are modeled mathematically, we find that their graphical representations are not straight lines and that the system's behavior is not so easy to predict.

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Pride of Staten Island

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Re: PATRIOT Act: zing!
« Reply #25 on: November 16, 2007, 01:37:36 PM »
I'm just saying, campaign your hearts out and you can have a huge impact on political races, but when it comes time to cast your own vote, it's insignificant. Far too many people are too hyped up about their own vote, but if you don't bother to enter into the politcal process, you're deluding yourself if you think the act of casting a vote matters.

    Another important aspect in dealing with systems is that systems can be modeled. In other words, systems can be created which will theoretically replicate the behavior of the original system. Following the pile of stones example, one could take a second group of stones which are identical to the first group, pile them in exactly the same way as the first group, and predict that they will fall down into the exact same configuration as the first group. Similiarly, a mathematical model, based upon Newton's law of gravity, could be used to predict how piles of same and different types will interact. Generally speaking, mathematical modeleing is the key to modeling systems, although it is not the only way.

    The second term, nonlinear, has to do with the type of mathematical model used to describe a system. Until the recent growth of interest in chaos theory, hence nonlinear systems, most models were analyzed as though they were linear systems. In other words, when the mathematical models were draw in a graph format, the results appeared as a straight line. Calculus was Netwon's mathematical method for showing change in systems within the context of a straigt line and statistics, regression analysis in particular, is a process of converting nonlinear data into a linear format for further analysis and prediction.

    Linear systems are easy to generate and simple to work with. That is because they are very predictable. For example, you could think of a factory as a linear system. We could predict that if we add a certain number of people, or a certain amount of inventory to the factory, that we will increase the number of pieces produced by the factory by a comparable amount. As most managers know, factories don't operate this way. Changing the number of people, inventory, or any other variable in the factory and you receive widely differing results on a day to day basis from what would be predicted from a linear model. This is true because a factory is actually a nonlinear system, as are most systems found in life. When systems in nature are modeled mathematically, we find that their graphical representations are not straight lines and that the system's behavior is not so easy to predict.

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Shaggy 2 Grote

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Re: PATRIOT Act: zing!
« Reply #26 on: November 16, 2007, 01:43:02 PM »
I don't really get how you can associate Ron Paul with that group. He's a legitimate politician using the internet to gain support. Lumping him into a group that consists of bloggers and forum users isn't right. I guess I can understand the delusional part...but it's a different kind of delusional that just happened to bring technology along for the ride. It will be interesting to see if the media and the public give him a fighting chance.

Also, Kucinich doesn't stand a chance and although I agree with Dave (that one vote doesn't really matter) it would kind of be a waste to vote for him. Some people run just to shape the ideas of the eventual front runners and Kucinich is one of those guys. I'm sure he'd love to be president but I'd be shocked if he actually thought he had a shot. He's just an idea maker and he's needed in the debates to shape the eventual Democratic candidate's views on Iraq.

I don't think Paul is delusional, but many of his supporters seem to be.  Check out the comments section of pretty much any open-comment web article mentioning Ron Paul and you'd come away with the impression that he had a massive, fanatical following (and I believe that Paul's supporters believe this themselves), but there's no indication that it translates into actual votes.  A similar thing happened with Howard Dean, though Dean will probably wind up as a sort of Goldwater figure - a losing candidate who shapes the future of the party. 

You could switch the names Kucinich and Paul in your post (well, at least the "media and the public give him a fighting chance" part of paragraph #1) and it would pretty much be equally true.  From one point of view, both are being excluded by the corporate media, the political party establishment, and "conventional wisdom," and from the other, they're outsider candidates by design, with no chance of winning but the possibility of shaping the debate.  I think it's probably both.

Did I pass the audition?

Zzzz.
(wakes up, applauds)

Just kidding, Dave - I not only made it though, but I learned something about math, which is a big deal for me (my math GRE score was dismal, but to my surprise, my strongest suit was not verbal, but logic).  But - wouldn't you say that the notion that a single vote is statistically insignificant is based on a linear model, and the idea that little things matter a non-linear one?  For example, all of the voting skullduggery in 2000, 02, and 04 - tiny margins (admittedly larger than single votes) made huge differences.

Get a room, boys.  This is making me blush.



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Gilly

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Re: PATRIOT Act: zing!
« Reply #27 on: November 16, 2007, 02:00:34 PM »
I understand you now. Yeah, his supporters should be lumped into that group. It's really tough to tell if talk equals action with the Web 2.0 crowd.

However, I think Paul is more than an ideas guy in this election. It really depends if a 3rd party candidate emerges but at this time it doesn't seem like there will be one. There are a lot of people who are really ticked off at the democrats for not taking the wheel when it was handed to them and Paul is a guy those people would vote for. The only problem is, that group probably won't vote in the primaries. But, if he could gain some steam, he's a guy both conservative and liberals can embrace.

Beth

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Re: PATRIOT Act: zing!
« Reply #28 on: November 16, 2007, 05:26:54 PM »
Kucinich is also the only candidate who supports gay marriage, and I think that's really important. But yeah, I'm torn on whether or not to vote for him. Although, I guess Obama and Clinton are pretty much the same in my mind. But who knows? There could be an upset. Remember when everyone was so certain that Dean would clean up the primaries?

dave from knoxville

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Re: PATRIOT Act: zing!
« Reply #29 on: November 16, 2007, 09:56:21 PM »
Have I mentioned that last week I saw a "Republicans for Mussolini '08" bumper sticker?