Author Topic: Humans continue to make a name for themselves  (Read 18710 times)

TL

  • Achilles Tendon Bursitis
  • Posts: 802
Re: Humans continue to make a name for themselves
« Reply #30 on: February 20, 2008, 10:21:28 AM »
It is a lifestyle when you have to think about what you are going to make or where you have to drive to not eat meat. That's very difficult for most people. It's not lazy or ignorant, it's just hard to fit that into an already hectic world.

Gilly - I think that the argument that it's very difficult for people to think about what they eat is a non-starter, my friend.  Whatever you're eating - meat or not - should involve a little bit of thought, and like with anything that people add to their lives to try to better them (exercise, television, yoga, prayer, drinkin', drugs, etc.), once you start down the path of incorporating a little bit of extra thought about how to incorporate these things, you figure it out, and often, as they become more a natural part of your life, you wonder why you wondered that it would ever be so hard in the first place, you know?
As far as "where you have to drive" goes, I'm snarkily curious about where you eat or shop normally that doesn't have vegetables available or that serves ONLY meat?  If there's truly NOTHING on the menu that's vegetarian, is it too much trouble to ask a waiter at an Italian restaurant if they can make that dish "without the pancetta," or at the Chinese place without chicken, or the French place without the duck confit?  (Well, actually, fuck Cordon Bleu French cooking - notice I say nothing about French country cooking..).   But seriously - options are always there.
As far as price goes, at least for what people perceive to be the more pricey "fake meat" options, if you're making burgers, Fresh Direct (I don't use it, but I figured they'd have prices on line... and they did) has ground beef patties at $6.99 a pound, which comes out to $0.44 an ounce, and Yves' veggie burgers at $3.29 for a 4 pack, which is 10.5 oz. of burger, which works out to $0.31 an ounce.
And just for the record, though people's fears about not getting enough protein are overwrought (most diets give us too MUCH), the beef has 23g and the Yves' have 12g of protein per serving, but the "serving size" of the beef patties is 4oz, so it works out to 5.75g per oz., and the "serving size" of the Yves' patties is 2.65oz, so it works out to 4.52g per oz. - a 1g per ounce difference. 
And obviously, simple vegetables themselves are not going to out-price your normal shopping, since you probably buy them anyway.  A 15.5 oz can of Goya pinto beans is just $0.89.  A bunch of green kale - HUGELY nutritious - is $2.79.  A bunch of broccoli is $1.99.  Nasoya "Silken Light" tofu is $2.39 a pound, and "Boneless, skinless, chicken breast value pack" is $3.69 a pound.  Beer is $1.44 per pound (6 12oz. bottles of Bud Light is $6.50).
Also, I gotta say, as this economic argument starts to get made, people are so worried about not offending each other with words like "lazy," etc., but there's a slight undercurrent of accusation in the "normal people can't take the time or afford to live like that" argument that's kind of offensive as well.  The implication is that all vegetarians are bohemian lay-abouts with unlimited disposable income.  Yes, I'm a musician by trade, but I've been living hand-to-mouth, as a vegetarian and vegan for the last 20 years.  My parents, who both still work all day every day (my father for an average of 14 hours a day) went vegetarian when they were in their early 40s, working full time, with four kids, and managed to make it happen.  It DOES take some extra thought (and thus, time) - but it's literally just "SOME" extra thought - it's not like you have to put your life on hold to go to grad school to get a degree, or something - we're talking about minutes and seconds here.  I'd venture to say that we can all, if we chose to, find those minutes and seconds in our lives, whatever we need or want them for.  Again - IF WE CHOSE TO.  If you don't chose to, that's your choice - own it - but I have a hard time with the idea that it can't be done.

Now write me a receipt so I can tip on outta here...

Laurie

  • Guest
Re: Humans continue to make a name for themselves
« Reply #31 on: February 20, 2008, 10:55:02 AM »
When I visited the Twin Cities, nearly every restaurant I went to had vegetarian or vegan options. One of the best pizzas I've ever had, at Galactic Pizza, was a vegan pizza. I can understand that it might be a challenge eating out if you live in a small town or something, but it's not so hard if you live in a city filled with Ethiopian, Thai, and Indian restaurants.

And in the interest of full disclosure, I'm also an omnivore. I limit my animal consumption to chicken, but I buy it from my hippie farmer friends.

Gilly

  • Space Champion!
  • Posts: 2110
Re: Humans continue to make a name for themselves
« Reply #32 on: February 20, 2008, 01:47:29 PM »

Gilly - I think that the argument that it's very difficult for people to think about what they eat is a non-starter, my friend.  Whatever you're eating - meat or not - should involve a little bit of thought, and like with anything that people add to their lives to try to better them (exercise, television, yoga, prayer, drinkin', drugs, etc.), once you start down the path of incorporating a little bit of extra thought about how to incorporate these things, you figure it out, and often, as they become more a natural part of your life, you wonder why you wondered that it would ever be so hard in the first place, you know?


I agree. It's difficult for most people to make changes to their diet no matter if they are looking at vegetarian options or not. Making a dietary change isn't easy...it's something you need to make conscious decisions about every waking hour. But, once you keep making those decisions they become unconscious decisions and a lifestyle.

But, really the main reason a person isn't willing to make that adjustment to become a vegetarian is that they probably aren't that sympathetic about animal rights in the first place or don't have strong feelings about eating it. If they did they wouldn't be eating meat.

TL

  • Achilles Tendon Bursitis
  • Posts: 802
Re: Humans continue to make a name for themselves
« Reply #33 on: February 20, 2008, 01:59:36 PM »

Gilly - I think that the argument that it's very difficult for people to think about what they eat is a non-starter, my friend.  Whatever you're eating - meat or not - should involve a little bit of thought, and like with anything that people add to their lives to try to better them (exercise, television, yoga, prayer, drinkin', drugs, etc.), once you start down the path of incorporating a little bit of extra thought about how to incorporate these things, you figure it out, and often, as they become more a natural part of your life, you wonder why you wondered that it would ever be so hard in the first place, you know?


I agree. It's difficult for most people to make changes to their diet no matter if they are looking at vegetarian options or not. Making a dietary change isn't easy...it's something you need to make conscious decisions about every waking hour. But, once you keep making those decisions they become unconscious decisions and a lifestyle.

But, really the main reason a person isn't willing to make that adjustment to become a vegetarian is that they probably aren't that sympathetic about animal rights in the first place or don't have strong feelings about eating it. If they did they wouldn't be eating meat.

I think you hit the nail on the head, there.

Now write me a receipt so I can tip on outta here...

erika

  • Space Champion!
  • Posts: 2412
Re: Humans continue to make a name for themselves
« Reply #34 on: February 20, 2008, 02:09:18 PM »
Is there really no value in eating meat that was killed humanely? Or humanely raised? Why is there no respect given to people who do that vs eating meat from just anywhere?
from the land of pleasant living

Andy

  • Space Champion!
  • Posts: 6112
Re: Humans continue to make a name for themselves
« Reply #35 on: February 20, 2008, 03:27:51 PM »
I think that past threads have proven that nobody is having their mind changed here.  I vote for letting this thread die.
Breakfast- I'm havin' a time
Wheelies- I'm havin' a time
Headlocks- I'm havin' a time
Drunk Tank- not so much a time
George St.- I'm havin' a time
Brenda- I'm havin' a time
Bingo- I'm havin' a time
House Arrest- I'm still havin' a time

John Junk

  • Guest
Re: Humans continue to make a name for themselves
« Reply #36 on: February 20, 2008, 03:40:05 PM »
Is it me or is this thread not really all that contentious and should be allowed to live?

Is there really no value in eating meat that was killed humanely? Or humanely raised? Why is there no respect given to people who do that vs eating meat from just anywhere?

That's the basic thesis of Omnivore's Dilemma is it not?  That the biggest problem is not that eating meat is by itself "wrong" and "evil" but that industrialized agriculture makes meat the most inhumane and unhealthy of all your options, and that if it were not for industrialized agriculture than eating meat would not be such a reprehensible activity?  Because I'm in agreement with that.  It's not that I'm against eating cows in principal, but the way cows are treated in the current system is unacceptable and I do not wish to contribute money to that system, nor do I want the products of that system in my body.  Alternatives to factory-produced meats are out there, but my understanding is that THOSE are the things that are expensive.  Not the vegetables, but the organically/humanely produced meats, so if you're trying to be humane on a budget, then it's better to just forego the meat-eating altogether(?).

Sploops

  • Achilles Tendon Bursitis
  • Posts: 757
Re: Humans continue to make a name for themselves
« Reply #37 on: February 20, 2008, 04:08:28 PM »
Is it me or is this thread not really all that contentious and should be allowed to live?

Is there really no value in eating meat that was killed humanely? Or humanely raised? Why is there no respect given to people who do that vs eating meat from just anywhere?

That's the basic thesis of Omnivore's Dilemma is it not?  That the biggest problem is not that eating meat is by itself "wrong" and "evil" but that industrialized agriculture makes meat the most inhumane and unhealthy of all your options, and that if it were not for industrialized agriculture than eating meat would not be such a reprehensible activity?  Because I'm in agreement with that.  It's not that I'm against eating cows in principal, but the way cows are treated in the current system is unacceptable and I do not wish to contribute money to that system, nor do I want the products of that system in my body.  Alternatives to factory-produced meats are out there, but my understanding is that THOSE are the things that are expensive.  Not the vegetables, but the organically/humanely produced meats, so if you're trying to be humane on a budget, then it's better to just forego the meat-eating altogether(?).

Yes!  I'm not against people eating meat per se, I'm against the practices of battery/factory farming.

Pat K

  • Achilles Tendon Bursitis
  • Posts: 722
Re: Humans continue to make a name for themselves
« Reply #38 on: February 20, 2008, 05:01:20 PM »
Quote
Quote
But, really the main reason a person isn't willing to make that adjustment to become a vegetarian is that they probably aren't that sympathetic about animal rights in the first place or don't have strong feelings about eating it. If they did they wouldn't be eating meat.


I think you hit the nail on the head, there.

I think what TL and others have said about lifestyle changes is true. Just speaking from my own experience, in the last couple years I've made a few lifestyle changes in different areas, including majorly reorganizing my diet (although not going vegan). I've gotta say, they've all been difficult, but the diet changes have been the hardest by far. Like Gilly said, it's just something that needs dedicated thought every single day, and although I know it will eventually become a natural habit like TL says, like anything else, it's always difficult to pick up any habit out of the blue, much less one having to do with something as basic and all-pervasive as eating.

So in the “it’s too hard/it’s not too hard debate”, I empathize with both side. Fundamentally changing what you eat and the way you eat is very, very difficult and not something to be taken lightly. BUT, it is possible, and I can’t entirely blame the fact that I’m not vegan on it. For me, it’s like Gilly said – at the end of the day, it purely has to do with my own feelings, ethics, and beliefs about the actual issue at hand.

I think sometimes people use the “difficulty” argument as a bit of an excuse to avoid owning up to the ethical considerations at hand. To a certain extent I do respect that as an argument – major dietary changes ARE profoundly difficult, as I know from personal experience. But I think to be able to get away with it completely, you also have to be able to come to grips with the abstract side of things and acknowledge that, to a certain extent, you’re not a vegan because of an ethical choice that you’ve made. That’s why you never see people who would otherwise be passionate vegans and find meat-eating morally repugnant shrugging their shoulders and saying that they have no choice but to eat meat anyway. People who really WANT to go vegan, they will find a way to go vegan. If you DON’T want to go vegan, that’s totally cool – but I think you have to acknowledge that you do have at least some ethical ownership over the decision, aside from the substantial practical considerations.

At least that’s the way I see it based on my own personal experiences. I’m hesitant to even post anything on this topic just based on all the raw nerves exposed and the easily-hurt feelings that come with this discussion. Again, I’m a meat eater, so I’m not trying to make any other meat eaters feel bad. I guess it’s just that, as Tom would say, whatever you’re choices are, you gotta own ‘em.
I'm warning you with peace and love.

scotttsss

  • Achilles bursitis
  • Posts: 109
Re: Humans continue to make a name for themselves
« Reply #39 on: February 20, 2008, 09:00:44 PM »
An easy polenta recipe:

Get some polenta, or corse ground corn meal at the store.  In a big pot (such as one you'd use for boiling pasta water) bring 10 cups of water to a rolling boil, and add salt.  With a big whisk stir the water around and around as you slowly add 3.5 cups of polenta.  Keep stirring and get rid of any lumps.  When the water begins to come back to a boil, turn it down to medium low or such that the polenta is bubbling but not exploding (it's like lava).  Switch to a strong spoon at this point and keep stirring for about 30 minutes, making sure the polenta doesn't stick to the bottom of the pot.  The goal at this point is to reduce the water down, and to cook the polenta till it's got a smooth, creamy consistency.  The water/polenta ratio isn't set in stone, really, it's like a very forgiving rice in that respect.  If you're worried it's becoming too dry as you're stirring it, have a kettle going on a back burner and add some hot water.  It's not something you have to worry about overcooking really. 

<=  That's what I do.  If you search the internet and cook books and there are many nuances at your disposal.  You can buy those logs of already cooked polenta at the store, but they're about $3 bucks where I live and course ground corn meal is WAY cheaper.  Anyway, after the polenta is done, you can pour it into a bowl and eat it like that as a side dish, you can pour it onto parchment paper or a cookie sheet, let it solidify as it cools, and then cut it up and fry it, bake it etc etc.  Quite versatile.  My favorite is to pour it into baking dishes, let it cool, and then top it with a simple tomato sauce and top it as one would a pizza, and bake it at 350 degrees for 30 minutes or so.   It's very satisfying, especially in the summertime when basil and more fresh herbs are easier to find/grow.

 

dave from knoxville

  • Space Champion!
  • Posts: 5108
Re: Humans continue to make a name for themselves
« Reply #40 on: February 21, 2008, 08:06:06 AM »
I didn't have any time to read all those words, but is this some sort of art installation? Because I sure wouldn't want to see that exhibit after I had eaten!

 

erika

  • Space Champion!
  • Posts: 2412
Re: Humans continue to make a name for themselves
« Reply #41 on: February 21, 2008, 09:25:19 AM »
I like polenta cut into discs and fried and served with eggs and beans and salsa. Kind of like juevos rancheros.

Another good veggie thing I do is I layer corn tortillas, rotel tomatoes, salsa, beans (pinto -- whole or fried. you could also use black) and sauteed onions and peppers like lasagna. Make sure there is plenty of salsa or tomatoes covering each tortilla and then bake. It's good with a salad. (naturally, it's also good with cheeze)
from the land of pleasant living

Shaggy 2 Grote

  • Space Champion!
  • Posts: 3892
Re: Humans continue to make a name for themselves
« Reply #42 on: February 21, 2008, 01:23:39 PM »
As a cannibal, I find this thread offensive.
Oh, good heavens. I didn’t realize. I send my condolences out to the rest of the O’Connor family.

erika

  • Space Champion!
  • Posts: 2412
Re: Humans continue to make a name for themselves
« Reply #43 on: February 21, 2008, 01:37:29 PM »
bite me.
from the land of pleasant living

Beth

  • Space Champion!
  • Posts: 1099
Re: Humans continue to make a name for themselves
« Reply #44 on: February 21, 2008, 02:05:25 PM »
You guys are awesome with your recipes. This thread is exactly what my poor vegetarian self needs.

What do you guys feed your cats? I've been feeding them Iams and Fancy Feast for the entire time I've had them, and I know how icky that stuff is, but I don't really know my alternatives. What kind of pet food or meats are safe/good for cats? Is that organic pet food any better? Sorry if I sound so stupid about all this. I haven't had much exposure to meat, having been raised vegetarian.