Author Topic: Why, Obama?  (Read 7089 times)

Gilly

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Why, Obama?
« on: July 09, 2008, 07:18:42 PM »
Does anyone get why he voted for FISA? He's got some explaining to do to some ticked off Dems.

jamesp

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Re: Why Obama?
« Reply #1 on: July 09, 2008, 07:50:58 PM »
He also ticked off a lot of people by expanding faith-based initiatives. He's just reaching towards the center to be elected, but he certainly seems to be disappointing a lot of his base.

I don't get why he voted for FISA, especially since I don't think the average voter feels that telecom industry deserves immunity.

Vambo

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Re: Why Obama?
« Reply #2 on: July 09, 2008, 08:00:30 PM »
He also ticked off a lot of people by expanding faith-based initiatives. He's just reaching towards the center to be elected, but he certainly seems to be disappointing a lot of his base.

I don't get why he voted for FISA, especially since I don't think the average voter feels that telecom industry deserves immunity.

Because Motorola is headquartered in Schaumburg.
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Gilly

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Re: Why Obama?
« Reply #3 on: July 09, 2008, 08:10:27 PM »
He also ticked off a lot of people by expanding faith-based initiatives. He's just reaching towards the center to be elected, but he certainly seems to be disappointing a lot of his base.


I understand what you are saying but anything that can be done to uncover the sham that the Republican party is the Christian party is a great move in my opinion.

Bryan

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Re: Why Obama?
« Reply #4 on: July 09, 2008, 08:22:17 PM »
Shouldn't that be "Why, Obama?"

That comma speaks volumes.

Gilly

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Re: Why, Obama?
« Reply #5 on: July 09, 2008, 08:23:13 PM »
Absolutely, Fixed!

Son of Dorvid

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Re: Why Obama?
« Reply #6 on: July 09, 2008, 08:40:19 PM »
Seems like a bit of an exaggeration to me, Gilly.  I imagine FISA and Faith-based initiatives are very low priorities for nearly all voters.

As for his vote on FISA, he said:

"My view on FISA has always been that the issue with phone companies per se is not one that overrides security interests of the American people," Obama told reporters on June 25. "It is a close call for me but I think the current legislation with exclusivity provision that says that a president -- whether George Bush, myself or John McCain -- can’t make up rationales for getting around FISA court, can’t suggest that somehow that there is some law that stands above the laws passed by Congress in engaging in warrantless wiretaps."

Obama also said the FISA compromise was an improvement since it would put an "inspector general in place to investigate what happened previously gives us insight what has happened retrospectively. So, you know, that in my mind met my basic concerns and given that all the information I received is the underlying program itself actually is important and useful to American security as long as it has these constraints on them. I thought it was more important for me to go ahead and support this compromise."

Of course, his critics call that a flip-flop or a "move to the center to get elected", but it seems like a reasonable explanation to me. 
The bill was amended in such a way that he thought the good outweighed the bad, so now he supports it, or rather, no longer supports a filibuster except in the case that the telecom companies be given retroactive immunity. 

That's not compromising his principles, that's just compromising on a bill to get shit done. 

Shaggy 2 Grote

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Re: Why, Obama?
« Reply #7 on: July 09, 2008, 08:46:11 PM »
I dunno, Dorvid.  I appreciate that he's at least addressing the arguments of his base (unlike Clinton, who only seemed to respond to the right), but it totally seems like a "strong on security" type of move.  I also appreciate that he can handle this sort of thing better than Hillary, Kerry, or Gore could.  But just because I'm planning on voting for him and I really want him to win doesn't mean he's infallible or above criticism - as of January 21, 2009, I'll celebrate along with everyone else I know, but I'll be as critical of him as I was of Clinton or Bush.
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Son of Dorvid

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Re: Why, Obama?
« Reply #8 on: July 09, 2008, 08:50:26 PM »
Sure, criticism is fine.  I'm against faith-based initiatives, for example.

I'm just saying that the idea that he's in trouble with the left is exaggerated and that it's largely invented by the media and the opposition.

It's not like I know shit-all about FISA or anything. :)

Shaggy 2 Grote

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Re: Why, Obama?
« Reply #9 on: July 09, 2008, 08:53:41 PM »
I think the telecom immunity is really the worst part of it - but as excited as I get by Obama, I've never forgotten who really runs things in this country...
Oh, good heavens. I didn’t realize. I send my condolences out to the rest of the O’Connor family.

Gilly

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Re: Why, Obama?
« Reply #10 on: July 09, 2008, 08:55:03 PM »
I didn't realize that Obama always stood for invasion of privacy.

I think a ton of Americans are alarmed at how strong/powerful our government is now when it comes to what they can do with our liberties at will. I also think a lot of Christians are reaching out to to the Democrats to make it worth it for them to vote that way. Maybe the circles you are in doesn't make that evident but the Christian Left is huge and it's growing every day. Obama can't ignore that and he shouldn't either.

Shaggy 2 Grote

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Re: Why, Obama?
« Reply #11 on: July 09, 2008, 09:00:46 PM »
I'm with you re. the Christian Left, Gilly - I was a pretty, um, active activist in the 1990s and religious groups were always some of the most helpful and active allies we had, often more so than unions, nonprofits, and definitely more than politicians.  I'm more worried about the corporations.

Not that I think Obama "selling out" is really the issue here - any good thing any politician has done, including Lincoln and FDR, has usually been a combination of responding to a crisis and pressure from constituents.  We've already got the crisis, so it's pretty important to hold Obama's feet to the fire. 
Oh, good heavens. I didn’t realize. I send my condolences out to the rest of the O’Connor family.

Martin

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Re: Why, Obama?
« Reply #12 on: July 09, 2008, 09:22:07 PM »
The word "fisa" means "(to) fart" in Swedish.

That's all I got.

Shaggy 2 Grote

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Re: Why, Obama?
« Reply #13 on: July 09, 2008, 09:31:27 PM »
Yeah, actually, it's a bill regulating Swedish farting.  As you might have guessed, it's been written by the corporations.
Oh, good heavens. I didn’t realize. I send my condolences out to the rest of the O’Connor family.

Fido

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Re: Why, Obama?
« Reply #14 on: July 09, 2008, 10:29:41 PM »
Disappointed here too, really disappointed.  I'm not necessarily opposed to Obama's much-criticized move to the right/center, since I think it can't hurt his electability, but FISA?  Faith-based initiatives?  I'd prefer that he expressed this shift on other issues, like fiscal realism and responsible government spending, for example (but I don't mean a more regressive position on the tax code).  Making it clear that the U.S. will continue to exercise its power (RESPONSIBLY!) abroad.  But why these issues?  It just reminds me of how Democrats for years have ceded ground to the right in order to try to prove that they're not a party of weak-kneed, reckless liberals, when standing their ground and asserting their principles might have been the right way to proceed in the first place.

This FISA business just makes me think that it'll be sooner rather than later that I'll be forced to withdraw to rural New Mexico or North Dakota and live off of the grid, communicating only by telegram.