Author Topic: Gene Simmons visits MSNBC, espouses..."ladies of the night"  (Read 4782 times)

jamesp

  • Tarsel tunnel syndrome
  • Posts: 353
Re: Gene Simmons visits MSNBC, espouses..."ladies of the night"
« Reply #15 on: July 12, 2008, 11:16:12 PM »
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/24/world/europe/24amsterdam.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

I know that prostitution will always be around so it makes sense for regulation yet there appears to be little agreement on what works. There's still many issues that keep workers from feeling safe in the trade. The Netherlands appeared to be in hopes of protecting the workers by offering work permits and rights, but it is beginning to seem that prostitution can't be normalized. Amsterdam has seen a large increase in illegal immigrant workers (More than "75 percent of Amsterdam’s 8,000 to 11,000 prostitutes, including 1,000 men, were from Eastern Europe, Africa and Asia.") and the brothels were usually run by retired madams but there's been a power shift "from madams to Dutch and Eastern European pimps."

"Mr. Cohen, the mayor of Amsterdam, recalled that in 2000, the Dutch legalized prostitution, intending to make the sex trade more transparent and protect women by giving them work permits. “We realize that this hasn’t worked, that trafficking in women continues,” he said. “Women are now moved around more, making police work more difficult.”
A task force set up by the mayor’s office, in a report last year, said that the marijuana cafes and the licensed brothels had helped generate more crime by providing legal outlets. “The marijuana and the women have to come from somewhere, and organized crime fills much of this demand,” the study said. The money earned in this lucrative trade is pumped back into the area, widening the criminal circle, it said."



Also, my thing about robot sex-workers was a joke. I meant to explain that because sex-workers have psychological and physical reactions to sexual activity, there is no way that the sex act could not affect them.

Trembling Eagle

  • Guest
Re: Gene Simmons visits MSNBC, espouses..."ladies of the night"
« Reply #16 on: July 13, 2008, 06:09:50 AM »
Also, my thing about robot sex-workers was a joke. I meant to explain that because sex-workers have psychological and physical reactions to sexual activity, there is no way that the sex act could not affect them.

So you are saying sex itself is demeaning and harmful to women?
If you follow your thread out to conclusion it's rather patronizing don't you think?

Sarah

  • Guest
Re: Gene Simmons visits MSNBC, espouses..."ladies of the night"
« Reply #17 on: July 13, 2008, 08:08:46 AM »
The fact is that, in this world in which we live in (as Paul McCartney would say), sex is not a commodity in the same way as, say, fruit or accounting services.  All kinds of moral, emotional, and spiritual baggage are attached to sex, thus both sex workers and those who hire them will usually react to the relationship in ways far more complicated than those that prevail in more straightforward transactions.  I suspect many people who hire prostitutes feel some contempt for them, thus sex for hire in those circumstances indeed has the potential to be "demeaning or harmful."  Until people truly do think of sex as just another item of trade, prostitution will always be more than simply another capitalist exchange.     

mokin

  • Tarsel tunnel syndrome
  • Posts: 258
Re: Gene Simmons visits MSNBC, espouses..."ladies of the night"
« Reply #18 on: July 13, 2008, 01:42:44 PM »
Also, my thing about robot sex-workers was a joke. I meant to explain that because sex-workers have psychological and physical reactions to sexual activity, there is no way that the sex act could not affect them.

So you are saying sex itself is demeaning and harmful to women?
If you follow your thread out to conclusion it's rather patronizing don't you think?


Nobody is saying that. But selling your body can be demeaning. And having lots of sex can be damaging (vaginal and anal tears, etc), and having sex with multiple partners can be damaging (disease).

Trembling Eagle

  • Guest
Re: Gene Simmons visits MSNBC, espouses..."ladies of the night"
« Reply #19 on: July 13, 2008, 04:28:16 PM »
The fact is that, in this world in which we live in (as Paul McCartney would say), sex is not a commodity in the same way as, say, fruit or accounting services.  All kinds of moral, emotional, and spiritual baggage are attached to sex, thus both sex workers and those who hire them will usually react to the relationship in ways far more complicated than those that prevail in more straightforward transactions.  I suspect many people who hire prostitutes feel some contempt for them, thus sex for hire in those circumstances indeed has the potential to be "demeaning or harmful."  Until people truly do think of sex as just another item of trade, prostitution will always be more than simply another capitalist exchange.     

The way I think of it sex work isn't a commodity per se but a service. Let's be honest all service work can be soul crushing and demeaning. I think you guys whether you realise it or not are making an indictment of capitalism. What does it mean for a single mother spending 8 to 12 hours a day being a nurses aid or house cleaner where she does physical grueling work and sometimes faces belittling or contemptuous treatment from her bosses/clients? Worst of all the pay when you compare it to inflation and the actual cost of living is a 1950's era living wage. So why do people work jobs like this? What are the benefits and cost to the individual and society with this kind of work? I feel unless you're asking these questions of all low paying service work, it's intellectually dishonest. Smacks of a kind of paternalistic and indeed puritanical streak in Americans thought.

Why does a woman only have a right to sell her body, her time, her soul in this way that is  social and morally acceptable? Why can't she be empowered to take charge of her body and life and at least be well paid for it?

jamesp

  • Tarsel tunnel syndrome
  • Posts: 353
Re: Gene Simmons visits MSNBC, espouses..."ladies of the night"
« Reply #20 on: July 13, 2008, 06:12:24 PM »
The fact is that, in this world in which we live in (as Paul McCartney would say), sex is not a commodity in the same way as, say, fruit or accounting services.  All kinds of moral, emotional, and spiritual baggage are attached to sex, thus both sex workers and those who hire them will usually react to the relationship in ways far more complicated than those that prevail in more straightforward transactions.  I suspect many people who hire prostitutes feel some contempt for them, thus sex for hire in those circumstances indeed has the potential to be "demeaning or harmful."  Until people truly do think of sex as just another item of trade, prostitution will always be more than simply another capitalist exchange.     
Why does a woman only have a right to sell her body, her time, her soul in this way that is  social and morally acceptable? Why can't she be empowered to take charge of her body and life and at least be well paid for it?

Prostitution isn't an empowering career. You have a pimp who controls you and johns that dictate what you will do for them. It's a job where you have no power.

Trembling Eagle

  • Guest
Re: Gene Simmons visits MSNBC, espouses..."ladies of the night"
« Reply #21 on: July 13, 2008, 07:04:19 PM »
The fact is that, in this world in which we live in (as Paul McCartney would say), sex is not a commodity in the same way as, say, fruit or accounting services.  All kinds of moral, emotional, and spiritual baggage are attached to sex, thus both sex workers and those who hire them will usually react to the relationship in ways far more complicated than those that prevail in more straightforward transactions.  I suspect many people who hire prostitutes feel some contempt for them, thus sex for hire in those circumstances indeed has the potential to be "demeaning or harmful."  Until people truly do think of sex as just another item of trade, prostitution will always be more than simply another capitalist exchange.     
Why does a woman only have a right to sell her body, her time, her soul in this way that is  social and morally acceptable? Why can't she be empowered to take charge of her body and life and at least be well paid for it?

Prostitution isn't an empowering career. You have a pimp who controls you and johns that dictate what you will do for them. It's a job where you have no power.

What are pimps, what do they do, why do they exist? What jobs does one have power in?

Pat K

  • Achilles Tendon Bursitis
  • Posts: 722
Re: Gene Simmons visits MSNBC, espouses..."ladies of the night"
« Reply #22 on: July 13, 2008, 07:39:56 PM »
The way I think of it sex work isn't a commodity per se but a service. Let's be honest all service work can be soul crushing and demeaning. I think you guys whether you realise it or not are making an indictment of capitalism. What does it mean for a single mother spending 8 to 12 hours a day being a nurses aid or house cleaner where she does physical grueling work and sometimes faces belittling or contemptuous treatment from her bosses/clients?

Well, for starters, prostitution is different from being a nurse's aid in that being a nurse's aid doesn't put you at exponentially higher risk of being robbed, raped, beaten, killed, or exposed to AIDS or a host of other equally awful diseases.  I'm 99% sure that, if given the choice, you'd much prefer that your mother, sister, daughter, or wife/girlfriend worked 8-10 hours a day as a low-paid nurse's aid than 2-3 hours a day as a prostitute who might make a little more money.

Also, if sex work is so fantastic, what do you do for a living, and why do you like to do that instead of sex work yourself? Would you recommend sex work to any of the young ladies you might know who might be looking for a career? I'm sure they'd all be fascinated to hear you explain to them how wonderful and empowering it is. And if they balk at the idea, I'm sure they'd love to hear you explain how their doubts are only a figment of their Puritanical, un-enlightened American imaginations. Yeah, that's not condescending at all.
I'm warning you with peace and love.

Trembling Eagle

  • Guest
Re: Gene Simmons visits MSNBC, espouses..."ladies of the night"
« Reply #23 on: July 13, 2008, 08:12:23 PM »
Well, for starters, prostitution is different from being a nurse's aid in that being a nurse's aid doesn't put you at exponentially higher risk of being robbed, raped, beaten, killed, or exposed to AIDS or a host of other equally awful diseases. 


Because prostitution is made illegal and unregulated of course it's dangerous, if you cared at all for the welfare for sex workers you'd want the population protected by laws instead of being harassed and prosecuted by them.

I think we are having a disconnect here, some of you are arguing prostitution should remain illegal because it's dangerous and harmful to the workers, I'm arguing it's dangerous and harmful because it is illegal.


emma

  • Guest
Re: Gene Simmons visits MSNBC, espouses..."ladies of the night"
« Reply #24 on: July 13, 2008, 09:25:02 PM »
Well, for starters, prostitution is different from being a nurse's aid in that being a nurse's aid doesn't put you at exponentially higher risk of being robbed, raped, beaten, killed, or exposed to AIDS or a host of other equally awful diseases.

Because prostitution is made illegal and unregulated of course it's dangerous, if you cared at all for the welfare for sex workers you'd want the population protected by laws instead of being harassed and prosecuted by them.

I think we are having a disconnect here, some of you are arguing prostitution should remain illegal because it's dangerous and harmful to the workers, I'm arguing it's dangerous and harmful because it is illegal.

You wouldn't ever go so far as to concede that the work itself will always be dangerous? Regardless of legality?

Trembling Eagle

  • Guest
Re: Gene Simmons visits MSNBC, espouses..."ladies of the night"
« Reply #25 on: July 13, 2008, 10:07:20 PM »
Well, for starters, prostitution is different from being a nurse's aid in that being a nurse's aid doesn't put you at exponentially higher risk of being robbed, raped, beaten, killed, or exposed to AIDS or a host of other equally awful diseases.

Because prostitution is made illegal and unregulated of course it's dangerous, if you cared at all for the welfare for sex workers you'd want the population protected by laws instead of being harassed and prosecuted by them.

I think we are having a disconnect here, some of you are arguing prostitution should remain illegal because it's dangerous and harmful to the workers, I'm arguing it's dangerous and harmful because it is illegal.

You wouldn't ever go so far as to concede that the work itself will always be dangerous? Regardless of legality?

I really don't believe it has to be if properly regulated and supervised. This is just my opinion but I think exotic dancing (stripping) is just an extension of the sex trade, how safe is that? Pornography is legal why? What is the distinction between having sex for money on camera vs. off? Seems arbitrary at best.

Sarah

  • Guest
Re: Gene Simmons visits MSNBC, espouses..."ladies of the night"
« Reply #26 on: July 14, 2008, 12:36:17 PM »
The thing is, prostitution is probably going to be "dangerous and harmful" to some extent, regardless of whether it's legal, as long as people have the notions they have about sex.  I agree that legalizing it likely makes it marginally less so.

mokin

  • Tarsel tunnel syndrome
  • Posts: 258
Re: Gene Simmons visits MSNBC, espouses..."ladies of the night"
« Reply #27 on: July 14, 2008, 06:17:54 PM »
Pornography is legal why? What is the distinction between having sex for money on camera vs. off? Seems arbitrary at best.

There's a difference. In pornography, both participants are getting paid. Only the prostitute gets paid, creating an imbalance of power between the john and the prostitute.