Author Topic: Theologicamol Questions  (Read 34652 times)

JonFromMaplewood

  • Space Champion!
  • Posts: 2372
Re: Theologicamol Questions
« Reply #45 on: March 28, 2009, 01:29:07 AM »
Old testament, but I would still appreciate your insights:

I have always been uncomfortable with the tale of Abraham and Isaac.  When God told Abraham to slaughter his son, I have always felt that it should have gone a different way. Abraham should have said "No. I love you, Lord, but this is my child and I will not do that" and God responds "That's the right answer. You are a good man." 

But in the bible, Abraham agrees to slaughter his son, and then good tells him at the last minute (via an angel) to put the knife down. Like "Close enough. You pass." 

Am I to take a lesson from such a story? That I should be willing to kill those I love in the name of God? Yeesh.

Not to mention, can you imagine how awkward Abraham and Isaac's relationship was after that little event?  Abraham must have been like, "Soooooo....Isaac....um....How about them Mets?"
"I'm riding the silence like John Cage up in this piece." -Tom Scharpling

Pastor Josh

  • Achilles Tendon Bursitis
  • Posts: 599
Re: Theologicamol Questions
« Reply #46 on: March 28, 2009, 01:31:26 AM »
Pastor Josh:

I'm going to ask several questions here, but you can reply through multiple posts if you'd like.

First question:
Are you part of a specific denomination?  Because I seem to agree with most of your theology and I want to know where churches with your particular progressive/non-literal approach to biblical text exist.

Next question:
How much of an impact do you think narrative had on the spread of Christianity?  The four gospels are written as narratives.  Jesus was pretty into allegory.  And the writers of the Bible were clearly great storytellers.  So do you think the strength of Jesus' narrative had a lot to do with the success of the religion?  I've always thought that a religion needs a great story to base itself on in order to be successful.

Final question:
Do you like the Danielson Famile?  How about Page France?

Thanks!

Thomas.

Numma wun:  I am a United Methodist.  One of our strengths is that there is a wide range of theologies in our denomintaion.  One of our weaknesses is that there is a wide range of theologies in our denomintaion.  Many UM Churches are progressive, but many aren't.  If you're really interested in finding a modern church, you might just have to check a few out.  Where are you from?  Your region might help.  For instance, if you're in Rhode Island, you might actually want to check out Baptist churches.  If you're in Arkansas, avoid even Methodists, for the most part.  We can talk more about what might suit your needs in your area.  Liberal Chirstianity can be found in any denomination, from Roman Catholic to Southern Baptist, depending on what's nearby.

Numba do:  Awesome question, which I'm not sure I completely understand.  However, I think story is the core of our theology.  I might quibble with your suggestion that Jesus was into allegory (parable is hugely different), but I think our faith is found in story, mainly because the stories we create with our lives are how we incorporate ourselves into the biblical story of God's work with humanity.

Numero tres:  Say whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa?  I hate to say it, but I don't know who those are.  Help me out, bro.  I could google them, but since I don't them, even Google couldn't help me answer.

Please, as always, ask me any follow up questions you want, especailly with #2, which I don't feel like I aswered well.  And, of course, thaks for the questions.
Who I don't have chocolate?

Pastor Josh

  • Achilles Tendon Bursitis
  • Posts: 599
Re: Theologicamol Questions
« Reply #47 on: March 28, 2009, 01:43:00 AM »
Old testament, but I would still appreciate your insights:

I have always been uncomfortable with the tale of Abraham and Isaac.  When God told Abraham to slaughter his son, I have always felt that it should have gone a different way. Abraham should have said "No. I love you, Lord, but this is my child and I will not do that" and God responds "That's the right answer. You are a good man." 

But in the bible, Abraham agrees to slaughter his son, and then good tells him at the last minute (via an angel) to put the knife down. Like "Close enough. You pass." 

Am I to take a lesson from such a story? That I should be willing to kill those I love in the name of God? Yeesh.

Not to mention, can you imagine how awkward Abraham and Isaac's relationship was after that little event?  Abraham must have been like, "Soooooo....Isaac....um....How about them Mets?"

No doubt.  I'm not really sure what to make of that story, myself.  Kierkegaard has an interesting answer in _Fear and Trembling_.  Here's a link to a blog post by a friend of mine who has a better answer, I think.  http://metholectionary.wordpress.com/2008/06/23/abe-and-ike-learning-not-to-hate-the-story/  I think your version of events is better.  However, learning about how these stories came about in the tradition of Israelite folk tales has helped me understand how our stuff differs from their stuff, if that makes sense.  I think, ultimately, that this is not a story that connects with our understandings of story, which means it might be hard for us to understand as a theological guide.  I like Will's problems with the story, and I think those problems have more to say to us than any straight preaching of the story.
Who I don't have chocolate?

nec13

  • Space Champion!
  • Posts: 2397
Re: Theologicamol Questions
« Reply #48 on: March 28, 2009, 02:00:49 AM »
Pastor Josh,

To what extent do you believe that politics should commingle with religion? There are some religious leaders who actively support certain political candidates and encourage their followers to vote for those particular candidates. Do you think this is an appropriate practice? I'm interested to hear your opinion on this matter.

By the way, this is an excellent thread and you've done a great job answering all of our questions.
Nobody ever lends money to a man with a sense of humor.

Pastor Josh

  • Achilles Tendon Bursitis
  • Posts: 599
Re: Theologicamol Questions
« Reply #49 on: March 28, 2009, 02:21:57 AM »
Pastor Josh,

To what extent do you believe that politics should commingle with religion? There are some religious leaders who actively support certain political candidates and encourage their followers to vote for those particular candidates. Do you think this is an appropriate practice? I'm interested to hear your opinion on this matter.

By the way, this is an excellent thread and you've done a great job answering all of our questions.

Thanks for the kind words, and I've had a blast answering these questions.  Please, keep them coming.  About politics and religion, I agree with the current tax code.  Politics obviously influence the voting of individual Christians, Muslims, or what-have-you, but if we want to keep our tax-exempt status, there are rules we need to follow.  I supported Obama, but the only public support I gave him was a button on my backpack.  If a particular pastor endorses a particular candidate from the pulpit, he or she is breaking the law, and I tend to think this is a pretty good law, unless a church is willing to be brave enough to risk its tax status, which might be a good, if dangerous, thing for a church to do.  I'd be happy to comment on particular cases, if this doesn't answer your question.  In short, however, I'm very alarmed by the association of Christianty and (especially right-wing) politics.  Like I siad earlier, love is the real issue.  If, as a voice of the church, you aren't expressing God's love, then you're expressing BS.
Who I don't have chocolate?

crumbum

  • Tarsel tunnel syndrome
  • Posts: 470
Re: Theologicamol Questions
« Reply #50 on: March 28, 2009, 12:16:45 PM »
Hi Pastor,

I'm really enjoying this thread. Do you believe in hell? Why or why not? Normally I would just assume the answer to be yes, but you seem pretty open to a lot of ideas that many Christians would have big problems with.

Do the majority of liberal Christians believe in hell/damnation as a real place/state of being?

Thanks!


Pastor Josh

  • Achilles Tendon Bursitis
  • Posts: 599
Re: Theologicamol Questions
« Reply #51 on: March 28, 2009, 12:40:15 PM »
Hi Pastor,

I'm really enjoying this thread. Do you believe in hell? Why or why not? Normally I would just assume the answer to be yes, but you seem pretty open to a lot of ideas that many Christians would have big problems with.

Do the majority of liberal Christians believe in hell/damnation as a real place/state of being?

Thanks!

I'm going to take these in reverse order.  The idea of liberal Christianity is fairly new.  There have been students of mythology and historical Jesus studies working in theology really since the enlightenment, but these were often, like the founding fathers, people who did not really engage in a life of faith.  Many liberal Christinas are still trying to define what it means to be a liberal Christian engaged in the religious life of the church.  (Jefferson didn't pray, but I sure do.)  I'm actually fairly orthodox in my views, so many liberals view me as backwards because I accept the virgin birth (and no, this doesn't actually contradict an earlier post) and an emmanent trinity, and many conservatives think I'm a heretic because I don't think the gays are driving us all to perdition.  Many practicing liberal Christians, fo instance, are highly biblically illiterate because they believe that the bible says all those things conservatives say it says, which it doesn't.  So, most liberal Christians believe in Hell in the abstract, probably, but try not to think about it.  Like I said, we're still trying to figure out who we are.  Many Christians simply don't understand there are alternatives to the type of Christianity they grew up with.  My congregation is fairly conservative, although far from close-minded, but they take an almost Baptist approach to salvation.  I recently baptized a woman who had been told all her life that when she was saved, she'd know it.  There would be a real born-again experience.  I've never had such an experience, and neither did John Welsey, the founder of Methodism.  It really opened her eyes to see that there were alternatives to what Grandpa (who is, in fact, one of the kindest and most loving people I have ever met) had always taught her.  I know you were probably hoping with more of a yes or no answer, but neither answer is sufficient.  If you'd like a really interesting examiniation of belief in hell, there's a great This American Life from a couple years back about it.  http://www.thisamericanlife.org/Radio_Episode.aspx?sched=1273

So, I can answer your first question briefly by saying no.  I can't reconcile a loving God with eternal punishment.  Doesn't matter if we reject God.  Still, God doesn't allow us to say no.  One of my favorite theological ideas, first suggested I think by Tillich, is that God turns our "nos" into his "yesses", which is too cute by half but still a nice thought.  Although, to be honest, I don't really believe in an afterlife at all, but I never believed in Hell.  In fact, this isn't all that uncommon.  It's just that the public face of Christianity has been so conservative for so long that many people, even Christians, began to believe that was normative for Christians.

I hope this made sense.  It does in my head, but I'm not always good at expressing myself.
Who I don't have chocolate?

ben

  • Achilles Tendon Bursitis
  • Posts: 520
Re: Theologicamol Questions
« Reply #52 on: March 29, 2009, 04:13:42 PM »
Pastor Josh,

I am curious if you have ever read any of the gnostic gospels.  Any thoughts as to whether they have any messages of value for Christian congregations today, and if you think the decisions in including and excluding various books of the New Testament still make sense in the present day?  I suppose in a sense by focusing on certain aspects of the Bible and not others each minister/pastor/priest does their own unofficial editing.  Is their ever room for adding/removing texts to the bible, or editing?  In a somewhat related note do you personally see the Bible as a template/guide, or as infallible law?  (fyi I am was raised very Catholic, so a lot of my questions have some basis in that - Catholicism is pretty hierarchical so wondering how some other Christians work)

Thanks for setting up this section - you answer each question with humility and humor and it was fun to find it and read it straight through.


Sounds like someone was working as a conduit for nature's natural vengeance.  Just like Jesus.  And some of the others.

ben

  • Achilles Tendon Bursitis
  • Posts: 520
Re: Theologicamol Questions
« Reply #53 on: March 29, 2009, 04:23:46 PM »
Old testament, but I would still appreciate your insights:

I have always been uncomfortable with the tale of Abraham and Isaac.  When God told Abraham to slaughter his son, I have always felt that it should have gone a different way. Abraham should have said "No. I love you, Lord, but this is my child and I will not do that" and God responds "That's the right answer. You are a good man." 

But in the bible, Abraham agrees to slaughter his son, and then good tells him at the last minute (via an angel) to put the knife down. Like "Close enough. You pass." 

Am I to take a lesson from such a story? That I should be willing to kill those I love in the name of God? Yeesh.

Not to mention, can you imagine how awkward Abraham and Isaac's relationship was after that little event?  Abraham must have been like, "Soooooo....Isaac....um....How about them Mets?"

No doubt.  I'm not really sure what to make of that story, myself.  Kierkegaard has an interesting answer in _Fear and Trembling_.  Here's a link to a blog post by a friend of mine who has a better answer, I think.  http://metholectionary.wordpress.com/2008/06/23/abe-and-ike-learning-not-to-hate-the-story/  I think your version of events is better.  However, learning about how these stories came about in the tradition of Israelite folk tales has helped me understand how our stuff differs from their stuff, if that makes sense.  I think, ultimately, that this is not a story that connects with our understandings of story, which means it might be hard for us to understand as a theological guide.  I like Will's problems with the story, and I think those problems have more to say to us than any straight preaching of the story.

Related to this - can you explain or point me to a proper explanation of the Book of Job?  I think you can understand why it's difficult to embrace.

Thanks Pastor Josh!
Sounds like someone was working as a conduit for nature's natural vengeance.  Just like Jesus.  And some of the others.

dave from knoxville

  • Space Champion!
  • Posts: 5108
Re: Theologicamol Questions
« Reply #54 on: March 29, 2009, 05:49:35 PM »
Old testament, but I would still appreciate your insights:

I have always been uncomfortable with the tale of Abraham and Isaac.  When God told Abraham to slaughter his son, I have always felt that it should have gone a different way. Abraham should have said "No. I love you, Lord, but this is my child and I will not do that" and God responds "That's the right answer. You are a good man." 

But in the bible, Abraham agrees to slaughter his son, and then good tells him at the last minute (via an angel) to put the knife down. Like "Close enough. You pass." 

Am I to take a lesson from such a story? That I should be willing to kill those I love in the name of God? Yeesh.

Not to mention, can you imagine how awkward Abraham and Isaac's relationship was after that little event?  Abraham must have been like, "Soooooo....Isaac....um....How about them Mets?"

Bob Dylan has the answers that you need, but Johnny Winter's version rocks harder.

dave from knoxville

  • Space Champion!
  • Posts: 5108
Re: Theologicamol Questions
« Reply #55 on: March 29, 2009, 05:54:06 PM »
Dear Pastor Josh,

I want to thank you for providing this service.

Here's my question. How large was the ark?

If I am allowed a follow-up, where did those hard-working friends and sons of Noah find polar bears and penguins?

A dingo ate my version of the biblical flood,

dfk

ben

  • Achilles Tendon Bursitis
  • Posts: 520
Re: Theologicamol Questions
« Reply #56 on: March 29, 2009, 06:10:31 PM »
Dear Pastor Josh,

I want to thank you for providing this service.

Here's my question. How large was the ark?

If I am allowed a follow-up, where did those hard-working friends and sons of Noah find polar bears and penguins?

A dingo ate my version of the biblical flood,

dfk

This might be better suited for the unfunny/snark page.  Come on, Dave.  I hope you're better than that.  You're probably not though.
Sounds like someone was working as a conduit for nature's natural vengeance.  Just like Jesus.  And some of the others.

buffcoat

  • Space Champion!
  • Posts: 6214
Re: Theologicamol Questions
« Reply #57 on: March 29, 2009, 06:11:37 PM »
Please stop this thread.

Thanks in advance.
I really don't appreciate your sarcastic, anti-comedy tone, Bro!

ben

  • Achilles Tendon Bursitis
  • Posts: 520
Re: Theologicamol Questions
« Reply #58 on: March 29, 2009, 06:15:13 PM »
Dear Pastor Josh,

I want to thank you for providing this service.

Here's my question. How large was the ark?

If I am allowed a follow-up, where did those hard-working friends and sons of Noah find polar bears and penguins?

A dingo ate my version of the biblical flood,

dfk

This might be better suited for the unfunny/snark page.  Come on, Dave.  I hope you're better than that.  You're probably not though.

That sounded rude, I apologize - I just enjoyed the friendly exchange of ideas that had occured before.  Shame on me.
Sounds like someone was working as a conduit for nature's natural vengeance.  Just like Jesus.  And some of the others.

ben

  • Achilles Tendon Bursitis
  • Posts: 520
Re: Theologicamol Questions
« Reply #59 on: March 29, 2009, 06:15:48 PM »
Please stop this thread.

Thanks in advance.

Why?
Sounds like someone was working as a conduit for nature's natural vengeance.  Just like Jesus.  And some of the others.