Author Topic: Theologicamol Questions  (Read 34643 times)

Pastor Josh

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Re: Theologicamol Questions
« Reply #180 on: April 18, 2009, 05:09:49 PM »

Also, re: ordaining homosexuals, is the issue over celibacy or homosexuality?  And don't you guys ordain women? So why not gay people? Didn't people have to make the EXACT same arguments about women being ordained that you would have to make to ordain practicing homosexuals?

Well, ordaining women really only goes against a letter Paul wrote to Timothy. They were Paul's restrictions and he was giving advice to a fellow pastor. Ordaining gay pastors is an entirely different story because if it's interpreted as such, homosexuality is a grave sin. The debate is if the verses in question are about rape, molestation and ritual sex or about homosexuality and the churches who have decided to welcome gay ministers have decided that the verses aren't condemning homosexuality.

Dear Gilly,

That's as succinct and accurate a summary of the crux of the matter as I have ever seen. Very few Christians with whom I am acquainted understand it, but you've nailed it. Can you speak at my church? Bring an egg-resistant pancho.

dfk

It's so important of an issue right now and it upsets me that almost everyone who has something to say about doesn't really know what they are talking about. If a person is going to be passionate about an issue at least know the details and I see both sides of this debate arguing with no real knowledge of the issue at hand.

Pastor Josh, I haven't read anywhere in the Bible that a woman teaching is a sin. There were many women leaders in the Bible and not one bad word was spoken about them. It wasn't until Paul wrote his letter to Timothy that the Bible mentions the role of a woman and not only does it come off as advice, he contradicts himself because in his various other letters throughout the New Testament he proclaims man and woman as one and the same, recognizes a woman as a deacon and leader and another woman as an apostle.

It does, in fact, say in the bible that a woman having authority over a man is a sin.  As you said, in I Timothy, and in another psuedo-Pauline epistle.  With all due respect, I do know what I am talking about, thank you.  Women in leadership positions are condemned by the scriptures.  Saying it's only in Paul or duetero-Paul doesn't make it any less scriptural.  (Paul didn't write either of the letters to Timothey, by the way.)  Women in leadership positions are condemned by the scriptures.  So allowing women to be in leadership positions violates a literal reading of the scriptures.  I think it is wrong to read the scriptures in such a way as to exclude women in this way, because, as you point out there are many women in leadership positions in the scriptures.  Psuedo-Paul condemns them, however.  In additon, women were the most faithful of the disciples, attneding to Jesus' body and being present for the earliest resurrection stories.  The simple fact of the matter, yet again, is that THE SCRIPTURES CONDEMN WOMEN IN LEADERSHIP.  In doing so they are wrong, but they so do nonetheless.  If something is unscriptural, a literalist can have no truck with it.  Therefore, ordaining women is as unscriptural as ordaining homosexuals.  Moreso, in fact, because homosexuals are not explicitly forbidden from holding leadership positions anywhere in the scriptures.  Now, I disagree with interpretations of scripture that condemn either group or forbid them from entering ordained ministry.  That doesn't change the fact that the scriptures cannot allow either.  So either the bible is wrong or Jesus is.  I'll side with Jesus and his acceptance of all who seek to know God better, regardless of the conditions of their birth.
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Gilly

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Re: Theologicamol Questions
« Reply #181 on: April 18, 2009, 05:27:26 PM »
Pastor Josh, that first comment wasn't directed at you in any way. You obviously know what you are talking about! I should have separated my two thoughts a little better.

Pastor Josh

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Re: Theologicamol Questions
« Reply #182 on: April 18, 2009, 05:33:22 PM »
These are the King James Version translations. The original Hebrew and Greek texts are a little more vague and those are the passages that are really in question.

Leviticus 18:22 "Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination"

Leviticus 20:13 "If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death. Their blood shall be upon them."

Romans 1:26-27: "For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence [sic] of their error which was meet."

I Corinthians 6:9   "Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God."

1 Timothy 1:9-10 "Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine."

Jude 1:7: "Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire."

Let's use a non-medieval translation, the New Revised Standard Version, and throw in some commentary while we're at it.

Leviticus 18:22  "You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination."
     Obviously, this is addressed to men,  Otherwise, female heterosexuality is an abomination.  The fact that is addressed soley to men, accompanied by the fact that it addresses only behavior, not orientation, suggests to me that it has nothing to do with homosexuality as we understand it.  It assumed that men would be heterosexually oriented and had no concept of any alternative.

Leviticus 20:13 "If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall be put to death; their blood is upon them."
    The same criticisms apply.  However, this brings the lovely threat of death into the mix.  Do you think that homosexuals (rather, men who commit homosexual acts) should be put to death?  If not, then you can't use this passage.  If so, you are insane.

Romans 1:26-32   "For this reason God gave them up to degrading passions. Their women exchanged natural intercourse for unnatural,   and in the same way also the men, giving up natural intercourse with women, were consumed with passion for one another. Men committed shameless acts with men and received in their own persons the due penalty for their error.  And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind and to things that should not be done.  They were filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, covetousness, malice. Full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, craftiness, they are gossips,  slanderers, God-haters, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, rebellious toward parents,  31 foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless.  They know God's decree, that those who practice such things deserve to die-- yet they not only do them but even applaud others who practice them."
    Again, homosexuals deserve to die.  If you don't think the death penalty for homosexuality should be death, then you can't use this passage/  Additionally, notice the recurrence of the word "natural".  If people are born gay, then homosexual acts are natural for them.  Since we can observe homosexuality in non-human animals, there is no rational argument that homosexuality is unnatural.  Anyone from bees to penguins to chimps to humans can be gay.  Beyond that, Paul is wrong from time to time.  He himself reminds us of that.  If he intended to condemn people who were born gay, then this is one of the times he was wrong.

NRS 1 Corinthians 6:9 "Do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived! Fornicators, idolaters, adulterers, male prostitutes, sodomites . . . ."
     Evn in the KJV, there's no indication that homosexuality is being condemned.  I'm excluded from the Kingdom because I like cosmos and the Gilmore Girls?  That's what effeminate means.  In fact, thi word probably refers to teenage male sex slaves kept by Roman nobles.  If someone is excluded because of something done to them, nt something they do, then I again think Paul is wrong here.

1 Timothy 1:9-11  "This means understanding that the law is laid down not for the innocent but for the lawless and disobedient, for the godless and sinful, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their father or mother, for murderers, fornicators, sodomites, slave traders, liars, perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to the sound teaching that conforms to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which he entrusted to me."
     Yep, this condemns sodomy, the definition of which is engaging in sexual acts using other than male and female genetalia.  Anyone who engages in oral sex, masturation (mutual or solo), or, obviously, anal sex are condemned by this one.  But we don't mean that by sodomy, do we?  No, we mean the bad kind.  The kind that makes us feel funny.  

Jude 1:7   "Likewise, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which, in the same manner as they, indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural lust, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire."
     This only condemns homosexuality if you've already defined homosexuality as unnatural, which begs the question.  Bad logic.  

The long answer is that I really don't think the ancients had a conception of homosexuality like we do.  That is, they didn't have a conception of people who born gay.  So, when they condemned homosexual acts (never homosexulaity itself, it seems) they were condemning an abuse of God-given sexuality.  I would argue that a homosexual engaging in heterosexual activity is engaging in exactly the same type of abuse of God-given sexuality.  Also, and this is somehting I've just noticed, the scriptures never condemn homosexuals in leadership.  They condemn a lot of other activities, like the wearing of mixed fibers (Lev. 19:19) that we don't bar people from ordination for.  Why should we for this?  Women, on the other hand, are explicitly forbidden from leadership in the church.  Again, to exclude either group from the life of the church, including ordination, is heretical and violates the teachings of Jesus.  The short answer is, unless you're going to call for the execution of homosexuals, you can't use the scriptures to condemn homosexuality without being a hypocrite.
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Pastor Josh

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Re: Theologicamol Questions
« Reply #183 on: April 18, 2009, 05:35:03 PM »
Pastor Josh, that first comment wasn't directed at you in any way. You obviously know what you are talking about! I should have separated my two thoughts a little better.

My apologies.  That did get under my skin.  I tried not to let that get into my responses beyond my snide remark, however.  If it did, remember that I am a flawed and sinful human being and ask you for forgiveness.  Thank you for your participation in this discussion, which has (especially the bit I just posted) really challenged me.
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Pastor Josh

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Re: Theologicamol Questions
« Reply #184 on: April 18, 2009, 05:37:08 PM »
And, to be clear, the "you" in my previous-plus-one passage was a rhetorical you, not you, Gilly.  If it reads as you specifically, then I seem like a real jackass.  Which, in fact, I often am, but not in this case.  If offended, please see my previous comment and double it.
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Gilly

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Re: Theologicamol Questions
« Reply #185 on: April 18, 2009, 06:09:26 PM »
I agree with your interpretations on all of those. The NRSV is not the translation I'd use but I guess there are a ton of people out there who take the new translations as gospel truth and they aren't going to accept what previous translations have said. Translations have been a blessing and a curse- they've brought the message of Christ to people who wouldn't have heard it, but at the same time the book changes leading to theological debates. Even a person who can read Hebrew and Greek and somehow finds access to the original documents would still have to translate what they've read to the rest of the world and the author's intent still could be lost.



jed

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Re: Theologicamol Questions
« Reply #186 on: April 18, 2009, 10:43:41 PM »

Also, re: ordaining homosexuals, is the issue over celibacy or homosexuality?  And don't you guys ordain women? So why not gay people? Didn't people have to make the EXACT same arguments about women being ordained that you would have to make to ordain practicing homosexuals?

Well, ordaining women really only goes against a letter Paul wrote to Timothy. They were Paul's restrictions and he was giving advice to a fellow pastor. Ordaining gay pastors is an entirely different story because if it's interpreted as such, homosexuality is a grave sin. The debate is if the verses in question are about rape, molestation and ritual sex or about homosexuality and the churches who have decided to welcome gay ministers have decided that the verses aren't condemning homosexuality.

Dear Gilly,

That's as succinct and accurate a summary of the crux of the matter as I have ever seen. Very few Christians with whom I am acquainted understand it, but you've nailed it. Can you speak at my church? Bring an egg-resistant pancho.

dfk

Can anyone post the particular verses that (ostensibly) condemn homosexuality?  Thanks.

Actually, to me the most damning and interesting language about homosexual activity in the Scriptures comes from the opening chapters of Paul's letter to the  Romans. It is more important than any of the other verses because it is not taken from the Jewish ritual purity codes which Gentile Christians have never felt obligated to follow and because in it Paul doesn't only denounce homosexual acts as wrong or sinful or whatever, but he uses it as an illustration of a really incredible theological argument. He basically says (forgive the lack of verse citations) the human race, whether you are a Jew or a Gentile, is screwed big time because refusing to worshiping the creator God, they/we choose to worship animals and ourselves (the images of God). And then he says that exchange of God for the image of God is illustrated perfectly when we commit homosexual acts because a similar kind of unnatural exchange takes place when a woman lies with a woman etc. (i.e. she worships herself rather than one like her but of a different order and vice versa).

Why are we talking about theology on the forum again?
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Pastor Josh

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Re: Theologicamol Questions
« Reply #187 on: April 18, 2009, 11:02:45 PM »
I agree with your interpretations on all of those. The NRSV is not the translation I'd use but I guess there are a ton of people out there who take the new translations as gospel truth and they aren't going to accept what previous translations have said. Translations have been a blessing and a curse- they've brought the message of Christ to people who wouldn't have heard it, but at the same time the book changes leading to theological debates. Even a person who can read Hebrew and Greek and somehow finds access to the original documents would still have to translate what they've read to the rest of the world and the author's intent still could be lost.




I prefer more modern translations because, as in any science, four hundred years is a long time.  Just as I wouldn't want my doctor to use a medical text from the seventeenth century, as a pastor I wouldn't want to use a bible from that period.  While I appreicate the beauty of the KJV, there has been so much advancement in the studies of Hebrew and Greek since then that the KJV is simply obsolete.  (Check out Psalm 29:6 in the KJV and modern translations.)  Modern translations do change the book based on advancing theologies, but so did ancient transcritpions.  Check out Misquoting Jesus, mentioned earlier in this thread, for an account of this.  The ancient author's intent is already lost, regardless of the translation, because no modern human being has a worldview congruent with that of the authors, no matter what they think they might have in common.  Even most biblical literalists accept that Heaven is not straight up, regardless of the various scriptural attestations (Genesis 1, Jesus; Ascension) to the contrary.  Nor do we believe that demons cause all disease and weather.  So we have already lost the mythological world of the scriptures.  We have to re-mythologize them for our own times, and I think that includes mythologizing Jesus' openness as a moral absolute.
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Pastor Josh

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Re: Theologicamol Questions
« Reply #188 on: April 18, 2009, 11:06:47 PM »

Also, re: ordaining homosexuals, is the issue over celibacy or homosexuality?  And don't you guys ordain women? So why not gay people? Didn't people have to make the EXACT same arguments about women being ordained that you would have to make to ordain practicing homosexuals?

Well, ordaining women really only goes against a letter Paul wrote to Timothy. They were Paul's restrictions and he was giving advice to a fellow pastor. Ordaining gay pastors is an entirely different story because if it's interpreted as such, homosexuality is a grave sin. The debate is if the verses in question are about rape, molestation and ritual sex or about homosexuality and the churches who have decided to welcome gay ministers have decided that the verses aren't condemning homosexuality.

Dear Gilly,

That's as succinct and accurate a summary of the crux of the matter as I have ever seen. Very few Christians with whom I am acquainted understand it, but you've nailed it. Can you speak at my church? Bring an egg-resistant pancho.

dfk

Can anyone post the particular verses that (ostensibly) condemn homosexuality?  Thanks.

Actually, to me the most damning and interesting language about homosexual activity in the Scriptures comes from the opening chapters of Paul's letter to the  Romans. It is more important than any of the other verses because it is not taken from the Jewish ritual purity codes which Gentile Christians have never felt obligated to follow and because in it Paul doesn't only denounce homosexual acts as wrong or sinful or whatever, but he uses it as an illustration of a really incredible theological argument. He basically says (forgive the lack of verse citations) the human race, whether you are a Jew or a Gentile, is screwed big time because refusing to worshiping the creator God, they/we choose to worship animals and ourselves (the images of God). And then he says that exchange of God for the image of God is illustrated perfectly when we commit homosexual acts because a similar kind of unnatural exchange takes place when a woman lies with a woman etc. (i.e. she worships herself rather than one like her but of a different order and vice versa).

Why are we talking about theology on the forum again?

Jed, I think you summarize Paul's point beautifully, or at least modern understandings of Paul's argument.  This is just one of those things about which Paul and I have to agree to disagree.  Unlike a lot of contemporary Christians, I read Paul through Jesus, not vice versa, so I have no problem saying that Paul was wrong.  (Which, strangely, Paul was happy to admit as well.)  And we're talking about theology here 'cause I loves it, and enough other people ar interested to keep the thread going.
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dave from knoxville

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Re: Theologicamol Questions
« Reply #189 on: April 19, 2009, 05:48:03 PM »

Also, re: ordaining homosexuals, is the issue over celibacy or homosexuality?  And don't you guys ordain women? So why not gay people? Didn't people have to make the EXACT same arguments about women being ordained that you would have to make to ordain practicing homosexuals?

Well, ordaining women really only goes against a letter Paul wrote to Timothy. They were Paul's restrictions and he was giving advice to a fellow pastor. Ordaining gay pastors is an entirely different story because if it's interpreted as such, homosexuality is a grave sin. The debate is if the verses in question are about rape, molestation and ritual sex or about homosexuality and the churches who have decided to welcome gay ministers have decided that the verses aren't condemning homosexuality.

Dear Gilly,

That's as succinct and accurate a summary of the crux of the matter as I have ever seen. Very few Christians with whom I am acquainted understand it, but you've nailed it. Can you speak at my church? Bring an egg-resistant pancho.

dfk

It's so important of an issue right now and it upsets me that almost everyone who has something to say about doesn't really know what they are talking about. If a person is going to be passionate about an issue at least know the details and I see both sides of this debate arguing with no real knowledge of the issue at hand.

Pastor Josh, I haven't read anywhere in the Bible that a woman teaching is a sin. There were many women leaders in the Bible and not one bad word was spoken about them. It wasn't until Paul wrote his letter to Timothy that the Bible mentions the role of a woman and not only does it come off as advice, he contradicts himself because in his various other letters throughout the New Testament he proclaims man and woman as one and the same, recognizes a woman as a deacon and leader and another woman as an apostle.

Around here, the belief among friends of mine is that Paul detested women.

AndrewVDill

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Re: Theologicamol Questions
« Reply #190 on: April 19, 2009, 06:26:57 PM »
Pastor Josh:

I heard Ann Holmes Redding give a sermon today.  I don't know if you're familiar with her, but she is a recently defrocked Episcopal priest who is also a practicing Muslim.  She didn't offer much explanation of how that worked, but I was just wondering what your take would be.

Also, I am a fellow Methodist, so I'll be glad to talk about the Book of Discipline or the Wesleyan Quadrilateral anytime.
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Pastor Josh

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Re: Theologicamol Questions
« Reply #191 on: April 19, 2009, 09:07:18 PM »

Also, re: ordaining homosexuals, is the issue over celibacy or homosexuality?  And don't you guys ordain women? So why not gay people? Didn't people have to make the EXACT same arguments about women being ordained that you would have to make to ordain practicing homosexuals?

Well, ordaining women really only goes against a letter Paul wrote to Timothy. They were Paul's restrictions and he was giving advice to a fellow pastor. Ordaining gay pastors is an entirely different story because if it's interpreted as such, homosexuality is a grave sin. The debate is if the verses in question are about rape, molestation and ritual sex or about homosexuality and the churches who have decided to welcome gay ministers have decided that the verses aren't condemning homosexuality.

Dear Gilly,

That's as succinct and accurate a summary of the crux of the matter as I have ever seen. Very few Christians with whom I am acquainted understand it, but you've nailed it. Can you speak at my church? Bring an egg-resistant pancho.

dfk

It's so important of an issue right now and it upsets me that almost everyone who has something to say about doesn't really know what they are talking about. If a person is going to be passionate about an issue at least know the details and I see both sides of this debate arguing with no real knowledge of the issue at hand.

Pastor Josh, I haven't read anywhere in the Bible that a woman teaching is a sin. There were many women leaders in the Bible and not one bad word was spoken about them. It wasn't until Paul wrote his letter to Timothy that the Bible mentions the role of a woman and not only does it come off as advice, he contradicts himself because in his various other letters throughout the New Testament he proclaims man and woman as one and the same, recognizes a woman as a deacon and leader and another woman as an apostle.

Around here, the belief among friends of mine is that Paul detested women.

Paul is certainly read as if he detested women,  Most of the really mysogynistic stuff probably wasn't actually written by him, and there's been some interesting work done recently in feminist Paul studies, which I am too unfamiliar with to comment on here.  I do know that in his authentic writings, he holds up women as leaders in the church.  I think he was probably pretty enlightened for his time, but that isn't very enlightened.  It always helps to remember that Abraham Lincoln would be a racist by our standards.
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Pastor Josh

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Re: Theologicamol Questions
« Reply #192 on: April 19, 2009, 09:17:16 PM »
Pastor Josh:

I heard Ann Holmes Redding give a sermon today.  I don't know if you're familiar with her, but she is a recently defrocked Episcopal priest who is also a practicing Muslim.  She didn't offer much explanation of how that worked, but I was just wondering what your take would be.

Also, I am a fellow Methodist, so I'll be glad to talk about the Book of Discipline or the Wesleyan Quadrilateral anytime.


I have heard of her, but only the bare outlines of her story.  I can't see how you could be both a Christian and a Muslim.  Christians hold Jesus to be the ultimate revelation of God's intentions for us, and Muslims hold the Qua'ran.  The two aren't compatible, as far as I can see.  You can't be a Muslim and sonfess Jesus as Lord, and you can't be an Episcopal priest and not proclaim Jesus as Lord.  I'm not meaning to suggest that one statement is true and the other is false, although my opinion is probably obvious.  However, they aren't compatible.  I always get a little suspicious of people who make extreme gestures like her, though.  For instance, take Beth Quick.  She is a woman who was ordianed in our denomination.  She publicly came out of the closet and was defrocked.  She has since made a career speaking up for GLBT issues in the church, and I support her and her work.  However, from time to time she expresses shock at what happened to her that I have trouble taking seriously.  I have met her and shared a meal with her and a small group of students at Eden.  I do not doubt her passion for ministry or the sincerity of her beliefs, but what happened to her was clearly what was proscribed by the Book of Discipline, though what it proscribes is wrong.  In some of these cases, I really want someone to ask, "Well, what did you think would happen?"  I'd like to hear what Ann Holmes Redding would have to say.  And it's great to have a fellow Wesleyan to talk to.  How 'bout that '08 BOD, huh?  Paragraph 160, am I right?
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AndrewVDill

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Re: Theologicamol Questions
« Reply #193 on: April 19, 2009, 09:30:32 PM »
Quote
I have heard of her, but only the bare outlines of her story.  I can't see how you could be both a Christian and a Muslim.  Christians hold Jesus to be the ultimate revelation of God's intentions for us, and Muslims hold the Qua'ran.  The two aren't compatible, as far as I can see.  You can't be a Muslim and sonfess Jesus as Lord, and you can't be an Episcopal priest and not proclaim Jesus as Lord.  I'm not meaning to suggest that one statement is true and the other is false, although my opinion is probably obvious.  However, they aren't compatible.  I always get a little suspicious of people who make extreme gestures like her, though.

That's just what I was thinking as well.  She tried to explain that the Qur'an acknowledges the uniqueness of Jesus, but that doesn't do much to resolve the issue.  And your instincts are right on the money.  I would have been able to take her sermon a little more seriously if the service wasn't going to be followed by a book signing.
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Gilly

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Re: Theologicamol Questions
« Reply #194 on: April 19, 2009, 10:53:13 PM »
There are tons of people, I'm sure many who post on this board, who believe that all religious texts are basically telling the same story and that all gods are one in the same. So, a pastor who is a Christian and Muslim isn't that crazy to me and I'm actually kind of amazed that there isn't a church with a large following that combines all of the elements of the major religions.