2009 MLB Thread

[yesno]

See, I just don't agree with that.  People didn't used to train with weights, and then they did and played better.  Steroids are just another thing people do to play better.  I don't get all the moralizing:  they can be used safely.

The only complaint that I've ever heard that makes sense is that steroid use starts an arms race.  Boo hoo.  So does everything someone does for an advantage.  I've stated above that they can be used safely:  I'd be opposed to them if always and every way they're used they led to long term problems.  But they don't.

People are hung up on this notion of what's "natural" and what's not that makes zero sense to me.  I'd implant a fucking microchip into my head if it made me speak Chinese.

Baseball is just a harbinger of our posthuman future.  Surrender.

[jbissell]

See, I just don't agree with that.  People didn't used to train with weights, and then they did and played better.  Steroids are just another thing people do to play better.  I don't get all the moralizing:  they can be used safely.

The only complaint that I've ever heard that makes sense is that steroid use starts an arms race.  Boo hoo.  So does everything someone does for an advantage.  I've stated above that they can be used safely:  I'd be opposed to them if always and every way they're used they led to long term problems.  But they don't.

People are hung up on this notion of what's "natural" and what's not that makes zero sense to me.  I'd implant a fucking microchip into my head if it made me speak Chinese.

Baseball is just a harbinger of our posthuman future.  Surrender.

Yeah, I think it's pretty silly for people to be so outraged when the majority of them would absolutely jump at the chance to use something that could improve their performance and make them a shitload of money, especially if it wasn't even against the rules.

[nec13]

Personally, I don't care what these guys do to their bodies. If they want to use steroids/PED's to gain an advantage, so be it. I just think the statistical accomplishments of those that used PED's are hollow.

[Stupornaut]

Personally, I don't care what these guys do to their bodies. If they want to use steroids/PED's to gain an advantage, so be it. I just think the statistical accomplishments of those that used PED's are hollow.

Fine, then let's invalidate every pitching record between 1963 and 1968 when the mound was five inches higher and the strike zone was something like 30% larger. And everything before the early-mid '60s, since integration hadn't fully (or at all) been established. And any accomplishments achieved during an expansion year.

[nec13]

The biggest problem in comparing the steroid era to prior eras in which there were conditions that created a drastically different performance environment is that the conditions in past eras affected every player equally. During the pitcher friendly years of 1963-1968 that you cited, all hitters had to deal with high pitcher's mounds. Likewise, during the pre-integration years, all players suffered equally from a limited talent pool.

The steroid era is different because the current conditions don't affect every player equally. There are players that have steadfastly refused to take PED's, thus putting them at a significant disadvantage over those players who do use them. Moreover, PED's have varying effects on those players that actually take them. Ultimately, the conditions today are far more unequal than they were during past eras.

With all that being said, I'm beginning to believe that all of baseball's statistical records are tainted to some degree. Perhaps we shouldn't take any of these records seriously.

To be quite honest, I'm burned out on this topic. I just want to watch and enjoy baseball. At least we can all agree on that.

[yesno]

You don't have to give up on the statistical aspects of baseball, it's just that it only makes sense to compare players against their peers, and then compare players across eras using the metric of how much better they were than their peers.  The steroid issue just makes this really obvious, where before people could mention and then forget integration and other changes to the game.

Not all players chose to take up modern training as it developed--weight lifting used to be frowned on.  But more relevantly, it looks like a majority of the players who probably would have been dominant anyway used steroids.  Bill James guesses that it's between 20 and 80% and he tends to think it's on the high side.

According to Baseball by the Numbers, non-steroid Babe Ruth was still a better player than Barry Bonds.  So that's something.

[Gilly]

Bud Selig needs to resign. It's ridiculous that the guy who was the commish when this all went down is still in his seat. That would be a huge step to repairing the integrity of the game because a new star gets outed every month or so, but the guy who was the town sheriff still remains so. The best thing for baseball right now would be a new commish with a hard line on performance enhancements. Not that it would change anything in the past or even in the future but the game's image will start getting better.

[Stupornaut]

Bud Selig needs to resign. It's ridiculous that the guy who was the commish when this all went down is still in his seat. That would be a huge step to repairing the integrity of the game because a new star gets outed every month or so, but the guy who was the town sheriff still remains so. The best thing for baseball right now would be a new commish with a hard line on performance enhancements. Not that it would change anything in the past or even in the future but the game's image will start getting better.

A salary cap and a World Series broadcast team that doesn't involve Joe "meh, this isn't football" Buck and Tim "let me reiterate the obvious, only somewhat inaccurately and condescendingly" McCarver would also be nice, but I ain't holding my breath.

[nec13]

Until the small-market owners grow a spine and insist upon a salary cap, there won't be one.

[fonpr]

Personally, I don't care what these guys do to their bodies. If they want to use steroids/PED's to gain an advantage, so be it. I just think the statistical accomplishments of those that used PED's are hollow.

Fine, then let's invalidate every pitching record between 1963 and 1968 when the mound was five inches higher and the strike zone was something like 30% larger. And everything before the early-mid '60s, since integration hadn't fully (or at all) been established. And any accomplishments achieved during an expansion year.

  I remember in the 70s when people like Roy White and Rico Petrocelli (good for 7 homers a year) started hitting 20+.  I understand amphetamines were involved.

[nec13]

There's no question about it, cheating has been going on in the game for as long as it has existed. Gaylord Perry scuffed baseballs. But people think that is charming in some way. The 1951 New York Giants stole signs in the pennant deciding game against the Dodgers. I suppose you could argue that there are varying degrees of cheating, with some actions being worse than others. I don't know if I buy into that line of thinking, however.

[dave from knoxville]

There's no question about it, cheating has been going on in the game for as long as it has existed. Gaylord Perry scuffed baseballs. But people think that is charming in some way. The 1951 New York Giants stole signs in the pennant deciding game against the Dodgers. I suppose you could argue that there are varying degrees of cheating, with some actions being worse than others. I don't know if I buy into that line of thinking, however.

So you think every form of cheating is exactly the same?

[hugman]

On another note.  Cy Young candidate Chris Carpenter really had his curveball going last night. Looked like he was throwin' wiffleballs.

[jbissell]

On another note.  Cy Young candidate Chris Carpenter really had his curveball going last night. Looked like he was throwin' wiffleballs.

You win hugman.  I have officially given up on this season.

[hugman]

On another note.  Cy Young candidate Chris Carpenter really had his curveball going last night. Looked like he was throwin' wiffleballs.

You win hugman.  I have officially given up on this season.

we'll see if the Cards maintain. Barring any more major injuries (KNOCK ON WOOD) I think they'll win the Central, and if they play the dodgers in the playoffs they'll beat them. The rest is up in the air.
A lot of teams just folded this year.
Still a lot of baseball left, though.