Author Topic: What the hell has Dawkins gotten himself into?  (Read 14130 times)

Tor_Hershman

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Re: What the hell has Dawkins gotten himself into?
« Reply #30 on: July 14, 2011, 10:19:36 AM »
Incidentally I'm an agnostic Jew...

Sooooo, you're not sure if Jews exist or not?
Well, ole Tor can straighten you out on that point with me wee
mini-doc
Tor Hershman's "AMEN (hotep IV - that is)"
OH!
That's what you ment, nevermind.
Special Thanks to Rosanne Rossanadana.

Stay, sit, stay, roll-over, stay.....
say, are 3/4 of the folks in Haiti eatin' sun-dried mud cookies today?
How GREEN of them.

cavorting with nudists

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Re: What the hell has Dawkins gotten himself into?
« Reply #31 on: July 14, 2011, 10:29:10 AM »
I guess that must be directed at me as much as anyone.  I didn't say anyone is obligated to "like" anybody--as it happens, I do believe Hitchens is an amoral prick and don't like anything about him except his anti-religion writing. I simply find it strange and counter-productive how quick self-professed atheists are to disavow people working on what they say is their own side.

I have a brother, for instance, who is a very confirmed conservative, but a relatively civil and thoughtful one.  He doesn't "like" Rush Limbaugh or Bill O'Reilly personally.  But he is perfectly happy to have them out there doing what they do, because they move the parameters of acceptable debate in the direction he favors.  That's how you prevail in the long run.  That's why we've ended up with an entire Republican party that would have been dismissed as fringey kooks in 1965 and a Democratic party that's basically to the right of Nixon.

I think you mischaracterize Eagleton and Hedges.  Eagleton is a believing Catholic and Hedges may have dropped out of divinity school but hasn't disavowed religion.  I haven't read their critiques of Hitchens and wouldn't be equipped to evaluate them on theological grounds if I did--any more than I could evaluate the depth of Jeanne Dixon's astrological knowledge if she were to debate Penn Jillette on the topic.  But I can say for sure that to discount Hitchen's arguments because of his unlikeability is the ultimate in ad hominem argument.
"Another thing that interests me about The Eagles is that I hate them." -- Robert Christgau

mike_b

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Re: What the hell has Dawkins gotten himself into?
« Reply #32 on: July 14, 2011, 10:51:48 AM »
Ron Paul and I both agree that pot should be legalized.

QED.

JonFromMaplewood

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Re: What the hell has Dawkins gotten himself into?
« Reply #33 on: July 14, 2011, 11:14:32 AM »
But I can say for sure that to discount Hitchen's arguments because of his unlikeability is the ultimate in ad hominem argument.

I think I was the one who started you down this long path when I wrote that I hate having Hitchens, Dawkins, and Dennett as the ambassadors of my point of view.  But I also think you misunderstood me.  I do not discount Hitchens' arguments at all.  I simply do not like the delivery mechanism.  You do not seem to understand this because you are too much like Hitchens, employing phrases like "invisible superheroes who live in outer space" to get your point across.  Nearly all of my dearest friends, including my wife, believe in god, and to ridicule them for it by using phrases like "invisible superheroes who live in outer space" is exactly my issue.  It is nasty and counterproductive.
"I'm riding the silence like John Cage up in this piece." -Tom Scharpling

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Re: What the hell has Dawkins gotten himself into?
« Reply #34 on: July 14, 2011, 11:27:26 AM »
Probably my worse sin in using that phrase was plagiarism.  I took it from David Rees.  I dunno, Jon, sorry, can't help it.  I say nasty things about lots of different types of people--so does the man who brought us all together here on this website--but again, there does seem to be this cultural disposition that mocking people's religious belief is on a whole other order of over-the-top nastiness than mocking their political beliefs or musical tastes or choice of clothing, and I don't agree with that.  People can take responsibility for what they believe.

Also, Newt Gingrich and I agree that the government should not be able to quarter troops in my house. See? I can build bridges.
"Another thing that interests me about The Eagles is that I hate them." -- Robert Christgau

Smelodies

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Re: What the hell has Dawkins gotten himself into?
« Reply #35 on: July 14, 2011, 01:00:52 PM »
It is nasty and counterproductive.

Of course it depends on the context.  If you say it after vows are exchanged at a wedding or after a clergyman officiates a funeral, I would agree with you.  If you're talking about the nature of God in a dorm room, around a campfire or on a radio show message board, I think it's perfectly reasonable to characterize the imaginary magic man in that manner if you believe there is no evidence for a (judgemental) creator with an interest in humans.

JonFromMaplewood

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Re: What the hell has Dawkins gotten himself into?
« Reply #36 on: July 14, 2011, 02:03:55 PM »
...there does seem to be this cultural disposition that mocking people's religious belief is on a whole other order of over-the-top nastiness than mocking their political beliefs or musical tastes or choice of clothing, and I don't agree with that.

"People are sensitive about their looks and I don't agree with that. So I am going to continue calling that guy over there 'fat ass.'"

Whether you like it or not, people are sensitive about their religious beliefs. It is not something with which you can agree or disagree.  So why not be respectful of others. Is that not "raw enough for you?"

And last time I checked, Tom was not poking fun of people over the phone for believing in, or not believing in, god.  And last I checked, we were not currently having a dialogue designed to entertain. In other words, I think comparing what you are doing to what Tom does on a regular basis doesn't work.
"I'm riding the silence like John Cage up in this piece." -Tom Scharpling

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Re: What the hell has Dawkins gotten himself into?
« Reply #37 on: July 14, 2011, 02:20:42 PM »
Actually, what I'll probably do, in line with Smelodies' point, is pick and choose my occasions to speak diplomatically or bluntly about people's convictions and/or weight, and if I cross inappropriate lines it will be me who pays the price. 

Obviously any comparison between me and Tom is very, very limited, but my point simply is that snark is pretty much a fact of life and I would expect anyone who was attracted to the Best Show in the first place to recognize that. Opinionated people say opinionated things.
"Another thing that interests me about The Eagles is that I hate them." -- Robert Christgau

Tor_Hershman

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Re: What the hell has Dawkins gotten himself into?
« Reply #38 on: July 14, 2011, 03:13:48 PM »
"invisible superheroes who live in outer space"
That IS one of moi's favorite expressions for gods. 
However, I can change.
Now, If I deal with a person that states, "God is everywhere," should I refer to god as,
"He who dwells within our turds," is that okay?
Huh, huh, is it?
Inside of a turd IS part of everywhere, ain't it?

I also say, Hay Zeus specific, “A perforated Hippie Hebrew on a stick,”
and for Satan, “A horned hobgoblin with a pointy gluteus maxims.”


Stay on groovin' safari,
 :o Tor :o

Tom Scharpling

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Re: What the hell has Dawkins gotten himself into?
« Reply #39 on: July 14, 2011, 06:17:57 PM »
There clearly is no God if Tor is back on the FOT board making everything ultimately about him and his lame third-rate Subgenius 'comedy'.

And it's 2011. Try to ease up on the craaaaazy colors and font sizes. Or I'll consider that strike three, strikes one and two being your inability to talk about anything other than your dusty agenda and strike two your repeated use of "moi" and "groovin' safari".

Tom.


Smelodies

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Re: What the hell has Dawkins gotten himself into?
« Reply #40 on: July 14, 2011, 07:02:58 PM »
Cool, I thought I was the only one who doesn't know what the hell he's talking about.

Keith Whitener

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Re: What the hell has Dawkins gotten himself into?
« Reply #41 on: July 14, 2011, 07:44:56 PM »
Cool, I thought I was the only one who doesn't know what the hell he's talking about.

I sympathize with Tor because I too used to not know how to use the Internet (this isn't passive aggressive because I'm going to tell him that I don't think he is good at using the Internet).

Dear Tor,

Just make a thread for your vids and post them there. Leave work at the office, know what I mean? Otherwise people are going to keep jumping all over you and you will do a disservice to your own point of view.

I'm on your side!

,

-KW


Shaggy 2 Grote

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Re: What the hell has Dawkins gotten himself into?
« Reply #42 on: July 15, 2011, 09:17:04 AM »
I guess that must be directed at me as much as anyone.  I didn't say anyone is obligated to "like" anybody--as it happens, I do believe Hitchens is an amoral prick and don't like anything about him except his anti-religion writing. I simply find it strange and counter-productive how quick self-professed atheists are to disavow people working on what they say is their own side.

I have a brother, for instance, who is a very confirmed conservative, but a relatively civil and thoughtful one.  He doesn't "like" Rush Limbaugh or Bill O'Reilly personally.  But he is perfectly happy to have them out there doing what they do, because they move the parameters of acceptable debate in the direction he favors.  That's how you prevail in the long run.  That's why we've ended up with an entire Republican party that would have been dismissed as fringey kooks in 1965 and a Democratic party that's basically to the right of Nixon.

I think you mischaracterize Eagleton and Hedges.  Eagleton is a believing Catholic and Hedges may have dropped out of divinity school but hasn't disavowed religion.  I haven't read their critiques of Hitchens and wouldn't be equipped to evaluate them on theological grounds if I did--any more than I could evaluate the depth of Jeanne Dixon's astrological knowledge if she were to debate Penn Jillette on the topic.  But I can say for sure that to discount Hitchen's arguments because of his unlikeability is the ultimate in ad hominem argument.

Fair enough, but to be clear, that wasn't my intention -- I was actually saying two different things. One, that Hitchens is a creep, and two, that I don't find his (or Dawkins') arguments on behalf of atheism very convincing. I also find straw man arguments (theirs and in general) far more problematic than ad hominem attacks, and perhaps was mistaken in mentioning the latter.

Also, where are you getting that Eagleton is a practicing Catholic? As far as I know he was part of the radical Catholic movement in the 60s but has since been very critical of the church. I could be wrong -- other than interviews and articles I've just read one Eagleton book, on Walter Benjamin (another religious Marxist, albeit a Jewish one). But by all indications he seems to be more of a lapsed Catholic than a practicing one.

I understand your frustration that "our side" (left-wing, atheist, whatever) seems much more fractious than the unified, disciplined "other side," but I think that's a misreading of the situation. There are really no such thing as "sides" in such a broad sense, and people who espouse liberal or anti-religious politics tend to also espouse free, critical thinking, which is frequently antithetical to loyalty to a "cause." And of course conservatives are often fractious and independent thinkers too, but "their" causes tend to be backed up by think tanks, lobbyists, PR firms, and corporate money, which gives the illusion of greater unity.

All that said, I find it hard to take seriously anyone who purports to be a representative of reason and truth, but reduces all religious thought -- which encompasses the vast majority of the thought in human history, including many of the ideas that most of us secularists take for granted -- as belief in "an invisible superhero in the sky."

Oh, and Fredericks, Jennifer Michael Hecht is my neighbor! I told her you were a fan. I'm not sure she'll be able to make out my explanation of who you are or how I know you, so maybe I'll just scan your trading card and send her that.
Oh, good heavens. I didn’t realize. I send my condolences out to the rest of the O’Connor family.

Smelodies

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Re: What the hell has Dawkins gotten himself into?
« Reply #43 on: July 15, 2011, 09:23:40 AM »
Why don't you point out where hitchens is making straw man arguments rather than just calling him a creep?

Shaggy 2 Grote

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Re: What the hell has Dawkins gotten himself into?
« Reply #44 on: July 15, 2011, 09:55:24 AM »
They're two separate assertions, as I said. I don't think Hitchens is a creep because he makes straw man arguments. I think Hitchens is a creep because I've spoken to at least 3-4 people who have experienced his creepy behavior firsthand, plus I find his Iraq war position (among some others) revolting and his moralizing tiresome, even when I agree with it (I largely agreed with his thesis on Kissinger in Harper's but could barely get through the thing).

Do we all have to endlessly justify why we don't like public figures now? I guess I'll start with Jeff Dunham.

As far as the straw man arguments go, I'm not going to spend all day refuting the arguments of someone I don't even take seriously. That way lies madness. But Eagleton does it well:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/apr/25/liberal-islam
http://newhumanist.org.uk/2085/tragic-hero-laurie-taylor-interviews-terry-eagleton
http://www.salon.com/books/review/2009/04/28/terry_eagleton/print.html
http://www.lrb.co.uk/v28/n20/terry-eagleton/lunging-flailing-mispunching
Oh, good heavens. I didn’t realize. I send my condolences out to the rest of the O’Connor family.