FOT Forum
FOT Community => General Discussion => Topic started by: emdasher on July 27, 2008, 10:41:36 PM
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I love this show and am psyched for the season 2 premiere tonight (it starts in about 20 minutes here). I don't have "The Wire"-level expectations for this, but I hope there are other FOTs who are eager to chat about the show here.
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I'm there. I've heard just enough praise for it that I'm in for this season, having missed the boat on the last one. Like you, emdasher, I don't have shoot-the-moon expectations, but the show's proponents are agog about it. I was just gonna start a thread asking who's into the show, and is it all that, etc. etc., when I discovered your thread.
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Is it bad that I'm only considering watching this show because of the hubba-hubba redhead posted in Chinatown?
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If you're just starting to watch the show I strongly suggest you check out season 1 first... just because there are some things in the plot that you might not get otherwise.
(And no, Todd. That's not wrong. Even I have a crush on her.)
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I'm almost done with season 1 and it's really great. It took me a little bit to get used to the period touches, like everyone smoking everywhere (even the doctor in the examination room) and the general disregard for women. Jon Hamm as Don Draper is one of the better leading man performances I've seen on a tv drama in the last few years. The supporting cast is really great as well.
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Though the redhead is tempting, my heart belongs to January Jones as Don's wife.
(http://img.actressarchives.com/images2/january/JanuaryJones_Vespa_6536903.jpg)
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This is one of the only shows left that I follow, and I thought tonight's episode was great. With no Wire and no Sopranos, this is as good as it gets.
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I'm most of the way through Season 1 and it's great. I just accidentally read some spoilers from episodes I haven't seen yet in the newspaper, though. :(
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This is one of the only shows left that I follow, and I thought tonight's episode was great. With no Wire and no Sopranos, this is as good as it gets.
Second this. I think show is actually better than the Sopranos and would have loved to see it in its r-rated, commercial-free glory.
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This is one of the only shows left that I follow, and I thought tonight's episode was great. With no Wire and no Sopranos, this is as good as it gets.
I miss them too. Why did The Wire have to end?
And The Price Is Right is only on in the morning, so now it has to be Mad Men.
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I'm a fan and DVRed last night's episode, so I'll have to check it out today. For those of you with Comcast digital cable who don't have the DVDs, the first season is available on Demand until August 10. I think they're also putting all the new episodes each week too, and it's definitely worth checking out.
I love Christina Hendricks on the show and think she's gorgeous, but I saw her doing the talk show rounds this week and think she's much more attractive as the bitchy Joan Holloway.
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Though the redhead is tempting, my heart belongs to January Jones as Don's wife.
(http://img.actressarchives.com/images2/january/JanuaryJones_Vespa_6536903.jpg)
January Jones was great in Tommy Lee Jones Three Burials film from a couple years back.
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Really? She was in that? I can't even remember. Maybe because Three Burials (or as I now refer to it: Weekend at Bernie's in Mexico) was a snooze.
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I like this show, and I haven't seen the new episode, but there's no way it's in the same league as Wire, Sopranos, etc. It's a tier 2 awesome show, like Rome.
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The jury is still out on that, yesno (or at least my jury is). If this show improves over season 1 then it will definitely become a tier 1 show. Its definitely much better than Rome.
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I like this show, and I haven't seen the new episode, but there's no way it's in the same league as Wire, Sopranos, etc. It's a tier 2 awesome show
The jury is still out on that, yesno (or at least my jury is). If this show improves over season 1 then it will definitely become a tier 1 show.
I thought that some of the final episodes of the first season were definitely tier 1-worthy.
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I like this show, and I haven't seen the new episode, but there's no way it's in the same league as Wire, Sopranos, etc. It's a tier 2 awesome show, like Rome.
I'm still not convinced Mad Men is tier 1, but Rome most certainly is!!!
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After last night's episode I feel like this season is setting up to hit for the fences. The Tier 1 fences. When Betty started "negotiating" with that mechanic I got scaret. I like how the gap of time has allowed the show to keep more secrets from me. This is good stuff.
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January Jones is better looking than she used to be when she was known as Josie Bissette.
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This thread should be retitled something like MAD MEN: TIER 1 WATCH (EDIT: Thanks). I'm placing bets that a) they make it and b) they get around to featuring a rock n roll record by someone other than Chubby Checker sometime in season 4.
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This thread should be retitled something like MAD MEN: TIER 1 WATCH (EDIT: Thanks). I'm placing bets that a) they make it and b) they get around to featuring a rock n roll record by someone other than Chubby Checker sometime in season 4.
Bob Dylan doesn't count, then? (I'm joking.)
I'm casting my vote for Tier 1.
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They've been in Tier 1 since "The Hobo Code."
On a side note, does anybody else find themselves wondering how Don Draper would react to current ad campaigns? I'm trying to picture Paul pitching that Old Spice commercial with the centaur.
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It's got a "take off your hat" scene in common with the Sopranos.
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On a side note, does anybody else find themselves wondering how Don Draper would react to current ad campaigns? I'm trying to picture Paul pitching that Old Spice commercial with the centaur.
I'd like to see Don's reaction to this pitch:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wq25qD44hC0[/youtube]
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Wait, Mike didn't like "Three Burials?" Explain, please. You didn't find Tommy Lee Jones to be equal parts adorable AND terrifying?
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Sorry, Susannah, Three Burials was much too slow for me. I think I started watching the clock about 10 minutes into it. I made it to the end, but it was a chore.
I can't say I've ever found Tommy Lee Jones to be adorable. As for terrifying, I found him much more terrifying in The Executioner's Song.
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I didn't it make through Three Burials. I think it was right around the "supposed to be uninteresting" sex scene that I turned it off.
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Do you know when Mad Men became Tier 2 for me? When it reused the set from M*A*S*H and gave Don Draper a helmet 2 sizes too large so that we couldn't see that he didn't look younger when he was fighting in Korea.
But I'll keep watching, mainly to see Christina Hendricks strut her stuff.
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Mike, you called The Wire mediocre or something. You have no credibility in my book.
Actually, you have tons of credibility I just think you are tight with your praise.
Here's how I imagine Mike's Tiers of TV Shows:
Tier One
Hill Street Blues
Tier Two
All in the Family
Larry Sanders Show
Mad Men
Good Times
Newhart
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Here's a bold confession: I've never seen one episode of Hill Street Blues. I've never seen an episode of NYPD Blue either. And I didn't say The Wire was mediocre, I said it was a good cop show like The Rookies and The Streets of San Francisco.
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Is there some way to attach a poll to the top of this thread? Something in the way of "Is Mad Men a tier 1 show?"
[Edit: Got it.]
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What would be examples of tier 3 and 4 shows?
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What would be examples of tier 3 and 4 shows?
I've been kind of thinking about it like this--
Tier 1 is "Sopranos"-worthy, must-watch TV. Tier 2 is still very good, but not mandatory viewing. Tier 3 you might watch if it happens to be on. Tier 4 you avoid if at all possible.
"Keeping Up with the Kardashians" is in my tier 4.
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I would say that "Tier 2" is still possibly must watch, but not the very, very peak. Sopranos, the Wire. I can't think of any other show that I like enough for Tier 1 status.
Tier 2 for me would be Mad Men, Rome, Battlestar Galactica when it's good, John Adams (costume shows, mostly). Also Twin Peaks. All of these shows would be Tier 1 were it not for Sopranos/Wire.
Comedies don't fit into this as well. Tier 1 comedies for me would be Brass Eye, peak Simpsons, and Mr. Show, with almost everything else that I am a fan of as Tier 2.
Tier 3 shows are "good," but you don't need to sweat tracking them down.
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Acknowledging that it's not (yet) at Wire/Sopranos level, I still think Mad Men deserves to be called a top-tier drama. There is room on the top tier for more than those two shows even if nothing else is as good as those two shows, y'know?
Don Draper's as complex and fascinating a character as has ever been on TV. I love how this character-based show is able to spin so much meaty, compelling drama out of such basically thin plotlines (what happened in the season 2 premiere, plotwise, other than the office getting a copy machine and Sterling-Cooper starting to "think young"? not much, is what, and yet the episode was brilliant anyway).
Having watched all of season 1 in the space of a few days thanks to On Demand, waiting a week between episodes this season is going to be torture. SHEER TORTURE. Top tier all the way!
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tier 2 now. but still at the level of a lot of hbo shows. solid stuff
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Acknowledging that it's not (yet) at Wire/Sopranos level, I still think Mad Men deserves to be called a top-tier drama. There is room on the top tier for more than those two shows even if nothing else is as good as those two shows, y'know?
Deadwood completes the Tier 1 triumvirate, at least for me.
Anyways...
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For me, Tier Two means see every episode. Tier One means see every not only seeing every episode between three and twenty times.
Tier One - The Wire, Sopranos, Homicide, Larry Sanders, Mr. Show, The Corner, When the Levees Broke, Generation Kill.
Tier Two - Mad Men, Deadwood, The Simpsons, 30 Rock, Flight of the Conchords
Tier Eleven - Tourgasm, Mind of Mencia
Tier Eighty - The Two Coreys, Fox News "Red Eye"
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Tier Two - Mad Men, Deadwood, The Simpsons, 30 Rock, Flight of the Conchords
Deadwood next to 30 Rock? Boioioioioing! <--- my eyes popping out
30 Rock is funny, but Deadwood is funnier. Tier 1!
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Is it fair right now to judge shows in certain tiers compared to shows that have already finished? I feel like it's much easier for us to look back at the Sopranos or other shows (now that they are done) and forget that it had several episodes that are just so weak. I loved the show and would call it a classic, but it feels like we are just being nostalgic and unfair to current shows that we're still only just getting into.
Tier Eighty - The Two Coreys, Fox News "Red Eye"
I've lost respect for some comedians who are willing to appear on crap like Red Eye. I understand somebody like Michael Ian Black appearing when he's doing the rounds to promote his book, but why''s Neil Hamburger a frequent guest?
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Yeah, the great Natasha Leggero has done that show, too. I just hope they pay well. :(
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Jon Hamm is hosting SNL this week, which caught me off guard. I watch "Mad Men," but when this was announced on last week's show, it took me a solid five minutes to remember who Jon Hamm was.
Is it customary for SNL to have one "who the fuck is that?"-type host each season?
By the way, has anyone changed their opinion of "Mad Men" now that season 2 is almost finished?
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I just marathon'd season 1 this weekend. I hate hate hated the first episode... lame period jokes and awful dialogue, like the gay guy who says "You mean a person lives life one way, but secretly lives it another way!? IMPOSSIBLE!" Ugh.
Anyway, it picks up a ton. There are moments where it gets not stellar, but I like it! I think its funny how the plot is almost unimportant, its so focused on exposition.
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TIER 1!!!1!
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I just marathon'd season 1 this weekend. I hate hate hated the first episode... lame period jokes and awful dialogue, like the gay guy who says "You mean a person lives life one way, but secretly lives it another way!? IMPOSSIBLE!" Ugh.
Anyway, it picks up a ton. There are moments where it gets not stellar, but I like it! I think its funny how the plot is almost unimportant, its so focused on exposition.
Yeah, the pilot put off more than a few of my friends from watching any more until I had them watch some of the later season 1 episodes when it really found its footing.
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By the way, has anyone changed their opinion of "Mad Men" now that season 2 is almost finished?
We'll see how the season ends, but I think this season has been richer and even better than season 1, a lot of which almost seems like setup now. Tier 1 (still/again).
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Im also loving Season 2 better than last season. The only thing I can complain about is the use of a Decemberists song.
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I just marathon'd season 1 this weekend. I hate hate hated the first episode... lame period jokes and awful dialogue, like the gay guy who says "You mean a person lives life one way, but secretly lives it another way!? IMPOSSIBLE!" Ugh.
Anyway, it picks up a ton. There are moments where it gets not stellar, but I like it! I think its funny how the plot is almost unimportant, its so focused on exposition.
How far into it are you? I think the plot is very important, actually... at least once you hit the middle of season 1.
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Im also loving Season 2 better than last season. The only thing I can complain about is the use of a Decemberists song.
I just read an interview with Matt Weiner and he says this:
"I actually used a song by The Cardigans last season to end the very first episode after the pilot, that’s contemporary. And of course David Carbonara writes a lot of music (for the show) and that’s contemporary. I feel like some of the music is source, and it’s coming out of radios and TVs and things like that and being played by orchestras - and that should be period. But music is one of your tools. I try to keep you in the period, but that song, I was doing a montage there and that song is so… (I almost used it last year, it’s by The Decemberists, and I almost used it last year when Betty was shooting the pigeons.) I want to have the freedom to use something that gives an emotion. I don’t think people felt it was particularly contemporary, all they felt was the incredible energy. And of course the words to the song, which is about this princess who’s both powerful and a princess and that whole kind of conflict - it just set up the show so well and just gave it this huge kick in the ass.
In terms of the artistic expression of the story, I always want to have the freedom to have contemporary music in there and I always want to have the freedom to put songs like that Bob Dylan song that I used at the end of the first season finale. To me, that song was not playing in Don’s house. That was a commentary I was making, which is "look at this man in this suit and imagine him in two years." That’s where we were going, which I knew and the audience didn’t – in two years, that music is going to be playing for this man and you just get this sense of “Oh right, it’s coming. It’s all coming.” That’s why I picked it. That’s part of it. The other part is the song completely emotionally and lyrically embodied his situation."
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It's a shame that he didn't really think it through.
Also, today someone sent me this (http://whatwoulddondraperdo.tumblr.com/), which is not a tier 1 site, but I like it nonetheless.
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Mr. Hamm did a pretty good job on SNL, I thought. I especially liked Don Draper's tips for picking up women. They were funny because they were true.
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Mr. Hamm did a pretty good job on SNL, I thought. I especially liked Don Draper's tips for picking up women. They were funny because they were true.
Nice James Mason impression too.
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the Finger in Butts sketch was pretty okay.
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I am a big supporter of Will Forte but did not enjoy his Pete Campbell impression. However, I have had the Mad Men background music they used last night as Draper makes his pitch for the hula hoop suspenders stuck in my head all afternoon.
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I am a big supporter of Will Forte but did not enjoy his Pete Campbell impression. However, I have had the Mad Men background music they used last night as Draper makes his pitch for the hula hoop suspenders stuck in my head all afternoon.
He could've done a better Pete, but I loved Will Forte's sex offender trick or treat sketch.
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He could've done a better Pete, but I loved Will Forte's sex offender trick or treat sketch.
I heartily agree. He's had a lot of good stuff this season. His songs on Weekend Update, CallBot, other things.
Back to Mad Men, is this thread supposed to be spoiler free? Because if it's not there are a lot of things that I want to talk about that happened last night. I'll start with one, but I'll write it backwards, just in case:
!nug a dah eh dnA !deirc eteP
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He could've done a better Pete, but I loved Will Forte's sex offender trick or treat sketch.
Probably the best sketch of this season!
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http://www.lrb.co.uk/v30/n20/grei01_.html
This article raises some good points, but some really annoying ones.
Good point: Yeah, the apparent emphasis on "Look how silly those people in the past were!" is sometimes a bit jarring. Although, if people really were sexist, it's not necessarily condemning the past to simply portray that.
Bad point: "Great moments in the history of advertising are simply acted out, rather in the way Kraft Television Theater in its day might have dramatised scenes from the life of George Washington." Well, yeah. Historical fiction does this all the time. What, do you want a scholarly analysis of the psychology and effectiveness of advertising? I'm sure that that would make a really fun show.
Really bad point: "The less you think about the plot the more you are free to luxuriate in the low sofas and Eames chairs, the gunmetal desks and geometric ceiling tiles and shiny IBM typewriters. Not to mention the lush costuming: party dresses, skinny brown ties, angora cardigans, vivid blue suits and ruffled peignoirs, captured in the pure dark hues and wide lighting ranges that Technicolor never committed to film." I really hate this dismissive idea that costumes and sets and so forth are nice but some how superfluous to the quality of a show. It's like saying that the way a novel is written has nothing to do with how good it is. You can have a great-looking show that still sucks (The Tudors) but attention to these details is important in making a good show.
Yeah, Mad Men is not as good as the Sopranos , but it's a damn enjoyable show.
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I got one more disc to go for Season One, and figure the show is a solid Tier 2.
The slide projector presentation almost made me cry.
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I got one more disc to go for Season One, and figure the show is a solid Tier 2.
The slide projector presentation almost made me cry.
Isn't that in the last episode of the season? Are you skipping around?
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I got one more disc to go for Season One, and figure the show is a solid Tier 2.
The slide projector presentation almost made me cry.
Isn't that in the last episode of the season? Are you skipping around?
oh MAAAAAAAAAAAAAAN! I thought it was a 5-disc season. I was looking forward to renting it tonight.
I guess I'm off to the season 2 torrents.
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Off to a promising start this year. I lol'd @ Roger's daughter's wedding date!
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I think if it wasn't already Tier 1 in the first season, it became Tier 1 in the second. Obviously I can't say anything about this season yet, though some of the stuff that's happened has me worried. The fire alarm in the season premiere, for example, was pretty clumsy. Then again, there were a few similar things in season 2...
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I burst out laughing at the fire alarm. That poor bastard Sal.
I have my reservations about the British takeover plot but it's way too early to tell how that'll go. Also not looking forward to Betty's poor dad hanging around. A couple more ep 2 moments seem odd the more I think about them... what was with that Peggy/Don look at the end anyway?
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My guess is Peggy's about to go nuts and I'm not even looking forward to it. This show does nothing for me at this point. Also, are Joan's breasts even larger than in the previous 2 seasons? One can only hope that she's eventually tapped by Russ Meyers.
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I think Joan is larger all over than in the previous two seasons.
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@BB-I usually get bogged down about 1/2 way thru the second season of most shows - I started losing interest in Mad Men right about on schedule.
As for Joan, perhaps Tarantino will contact her for his Faster Pussycat remake.
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I still love this show but it's never been about the acting, stories, or anything else. I can barely remember "plot" elements from last season, they're so uninteresting. It's about sweet costumes and interior design and funny bigoted moments that let use feel superior.
"The British are just sucking money out of the company and aren't interested in long-term success" and "Peggy is going nuts" seem to be being telegraphed pretty obviously. We'll see.
Peggy just needs to settle down with a nice man and to give up on these silly career ambitions.
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How is Peggy going (more) nuts? Sleeping w/ some random dude? Doing an Ann Margaret impression in front of a mirror? Hell, if those were signs of mental illness half of this board would be committed.
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I don't want to read too much of the thread because I plan on starting to watch MAD MEN sometime over the next few weeks.
But I'm curious about one thing that I looked through the thread to find. What tier would you all place LOST on?
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Depending on which season I'm watching and my mood, I'd put Lost somewhere between tiers 2 & 3.
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How is Peggy going (more) nuts? Sleeping w/ some random dude? Doing an Ann Margaret impression in front of a mirror? Hell, if those were signs of mental illness half of this board would be committed.
Did you hear about the itunes screw up where they actually put episode 3 up? It was reported that episode 3 has something to do with Peggy and marijuana.
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I predict that this show will end with Don at Woodstock.
...thoughts?
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I bet it will end with a shot of Don sitting in a chair and smoking a cigarette while staring at a wall or a window, or maybe even another chair.
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Don's going to end up in jail for stealing that dude's identity and going AWOL.
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Don's going to end up in jail for stealing that dude's identity and going AWOL.
nice.
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Maybe it'll be a shot of Don in prison sitting on the bottom bunk of his bed, smoking a cigarette and staring at the small, barred window.
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Maybe it'll be a shot of Don in prison sitting on the bottom bunk of his bed, smoking a cigarette and staring at the small, barred window.
Or inside the Warden's TV reenacting old Rolled Gold ads, hoping he brings the set home to his wife.
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I think it will end with Peggy giving birth to a second child and naming it Matthew Weiner.
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Don's going to end up in jail for stealing that dude's identity and going AWOL.
It'll certainly make things awkward when he's elected President and can't produce a real birth certificate.
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Maybe it will end with Don in the oval office sitting down behind his desk, smoking a cigarette and staring at the presidential seal.
Alright, I'll stop now.
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Snow globe.
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Sally Draper, now a fat, chain-smoking lesbian with poor balance, will kill Don with the hammer from his toolbox and wrap a plastic bag around Betty's head until she suffocates. Then she'll steal the identity of a young woman named "Penny Marshall" and the Draper/Whitman legacy will continue...
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My guess is Peggy's about to go nuts and I'm not even looking forward to it. This show does nothing for me at this point. Also, are Joan's breasts even larger than in the previous 2 seasons? One can only hope that she's eventually tapped by Russ Meyers.
What do you mean by "tapped"?
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I think Joan is larger all over than in the previous two seasons.
I've seen photos Ms. Hendricks (Joan) recently and she looks much thinner. I suspect she's padded this season.
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How is Peggy going nuts? She spends the first part of the episode feeling erased because she's not the type of woman that men take seriously as a woman, even when they pay reluctant homage to her brains and talent, and in the second part she decides to see what life would be like if she played the standard game. It might not be the healthiest response, but it hardly presages impending lunacy.
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I predict that this show will end with Don at Woodstock.
...thoughts?
On the final day before Sterling Cooper shuts down, the old gang reunites at the office to exchange inscrutable stares for an hour.
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How is Peggy going nuts? She spends the first part of the episode feeling erased because she's not the type of woman that men take seriously as a woman, even when they pay reluctant homage to her brains and talent, and in the second part she decides to see what life would be like if she played the standard game. It might not be the healthiest response, but it hardly presages impending lunacy.
I agree 100%. I didn't think the mirror thing was her going crazy but her trying to feel sexy since she's put the conventional woman thing aside for her career.
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By "nuts" I don't actually mean crazy kooky nuts. But it feels like they're telegraphing her doing something drastic. She may end up happy or unhappy as a result.
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By "nuts" I don't actually mean crazy kooky nuts. But it feels like they're telegraphing her doing something drastic. She may end up happy or unhappy as a result.
Wait, more drastic than pretending you didn't have a kid?
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Oh, that happens all the time.
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We get it, Mad Men, all white people were racists in the 60s. Do you really have to show a guy singing in blackface to make your heavy-handed point? What's next? Is Gene going to bring a watermelon home for the maid?
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Agreed Mike, that blackface scene was so superfluous and uncomfortable to watch.
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We get it, Mad Men, all white people were racists in the 60s. Do you really have to show a guy singing in blackface to make your heavy-handed point? What's next? Is Gene going to bring a watermelon home for the maid?
This is like The Wire all over again. Check, please!
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How is Peggy going (more) nuts? Sleeping w/ some random dude? Doing an Ann Margaret impression in front of a mirror? Hell, if those were signs of mental illness half of this board would be committed.
Did you hear about the itunes screw up where they actually put episode 3 up? It was reported that episode 3 has something to do with Peggy and marijuana.
How was the black face not reported?
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We get it, Mad Men, all white people were racists in the 60s. Do you really have to show a guy singing in blackface to make your heavy-handed point? What's next? Is Gene going to bring a watermelon home for the maid?
This is like The Wire all over again. Check, please!
This is going to make you happy, Jouster: Mad Men isn't even in the same league as The Wire. There, are we friends again?
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Who knew Pete was such a dancer?
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I was going to post about that, jbissell. I believe in those very words.
Clarification: I wasn't so much impressed that Pete mastered that elaborate routine; what surprised me was that Vincent Kartheiser, who generally comes off as physically awkward, was such a flexible and graceful dancer. Certainly, his little victory convulsion when he thought he'd landed a big promotion gave no indication of this.
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Agreed Mike, that blackface scene was so superfluous and uncomfortable to watch.
Wasn't it showing Roger's horrible sense of humor? And that it was still accepted, etc etc etc? I don't see why that was so out of place, much less a reason to be upset. I found Pete's dancing scene more gratuitous and silly.
(MAD MEN MAKE MIKE MAD. MIKE SMASH!! RAWR :) )
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Who knew Pete was such a dancer?
Frankly, I was more surprised Pete seemed uncomfortable w/ the blackface.
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(http://www.fancast.com/blogs/files/2009/08/250-x-250-pete-campbell1.jpg)
(http://media.canada.com/67bc2623-9886-4c71-9f03-edf992a0aa3a/dfoley_375x375.jpg)
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through season one and early season two, mad men was more a museum piece to be admired than an enjoyable watch
since then, it's found heart (strangely, following the ice age-style makeover of betty). i'm enjoying the show MUCH more nowadays than i was, initially.
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i liked when don went out to california. and i liked when don made me cry over a slide projector.
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Agreed Mike, that blackface scene was so superfluous and uncomfortable to watch.
Wasn't it showing Roger's horrible sense of humor? And that it was still accepted, etc etc etc? I don't see why that was so out of place, much less a reason to be upset. I found Pete's dancing scene more gratuitous and silly.
(MAD MEN MAKE MIKE MAD. MIKE SMASH!! RAWR :) )
I agree with Erika on this: The whole point of the blackface was more to show that this behavior was already unpopular to segments of the population that were more sympathetic to the civil rights movement (Both Don and Pete looked on Roger's performance with palpable disgust.) Roger's an old man in 1960's, he's from a different era and that's more to the point than the facile, blanket "People were more racist in the 60's" message y'all seem to be interpreting it as.
I'd like to believe Pete's whole issue with Admiral TV this past episode gave some added justification to the blackface sequence.
I suspect this season is going to get seriously 60's political in a hurry.
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I agree with you Matthew and I think this last episode was the best episode since season one.
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I miss the live-in grandpa. Just as I was starting to not hate him, they kill him.
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The problem with your argument, Matthew, is that blackface was no longer popular by the end of the 1930s. In the early 60s it would have been just as outrageous as it is now. America didn't go from blackface to civil rights overnight.
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The problem with your argument, Matthew, is that blackface was no longer popular by the end of the 1930s. In the early 60s it would have been just as outrageous as it is now. America didn't go from blackface to civil rights overnight.
It may not have been part of contemporary life by that point, any more than Pete and Trudy's Charleston was. But a privileged boob like Roger would've had no qualms about doing it at a private country club if he felt like it.
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Especially since the theme of the party seemed to be Old Southy.
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But wouldn't a privileged boob have known that it would make him look like a plain ol' boob? Maybe I'm just giving these characters too much credit for intelligence.
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But wouldn't a privileged boob have known that it would make him look like a plain ol' boob? Maybe I'm just giving these characters too much credit for intelligence.
Precisely, Buster.
In real life too.
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You're certainly giving Roger the benefit of the doubt.
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But wouldn't a privileged boob have known that it would make him look like a plain ol' boob? Maybe I'm just giving these characters too much credit for intelligence.
Maybe he doesn't care? It's not like anyone really approves of his new trophy wife, and that doesn't seem to bother him too much.
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Yeah, but don't you think we would have seen some evidence of his racism before he went whole hog? It came out of nowhere which is why it felt heavy-handed.
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I don't think someone like him at that time would necessarily perceive his actions as offensively racist. He'd feel it was all in good fun. Hell, when I was growing up, automatic, unapologetic racism was par for the course. Hell, kids happily chanted "Eenie meenie miney moe, catch a nigger by the toe" without most people batting an eyelash. My parents and their friends were very much in the minority when it came to this subject--and this was in upstate New York. It wasn't really till the late sixties that objections to racism became more widespread, at least as far as I could tell.
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This blackface argument wouldn't exist if Roger wasn't consistently funny. He's easily one of the most despicable characters... but he's so silly!
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Blackface can't be all that offensive if Billy Crystal still does it.
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I don't think I've ever laughed as hard at something in an episode as I did tonight.
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I don't think I've ever laughed as hard at something in an episode as I did tonight.
The foot? Or Betty telling her son to go bang his head against a wall and that only boring people are bored? I laughed at both. I'm a ghoul.
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I don't think I've ever laughed as hard at something in an episode as I did tonight.
The foot? Or Betty telling her son to go bang his head against a wall and that only boring people are bored? I laughed at both. I'm a ghoul.
The foot, something about the blood spraying on everyone killed me, and then Roger's joke later. Betty's motherly advice was also good.
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Betty's motherly advice was also good.
"Faeries help babies do things. You know that."
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I'm a little disappointed they aren't going the evil magic baby route after all. A quick shot of the baby looking into the camera with Thriller Eyes at the end would have been nice.
Did they have reverse razor technology back in the '60s? It seemed like Don had more of a beard going after he got his shave than before. Prior to hitting the barbershop he looked normal, but in all the scenes after that, he had a Fred Flintstone five o'clock shadow thing happening. This may just be a testament to the superhuman manliness of Don/Jon Hamm, I guess.
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I noticed that too, Wes, and I thought it was a little weird. They couldn't have used a Schick Quattro on him before filming?
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I think they're building to a 'Dark Shadows' type storyline where Don's a werewolf. Would Peggy be the vampire?
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"This is good champagne."
(pregnant pause, deep breath...)
"I don't think so."
I laughed for five minutes.
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Yep, probably the funniest episode so far. I love this show. TIER ONE!
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Am I a bad person for enjoying this image?
(http://i34.tinypic.com/1230ihj.jpg)
Top 2 Reactions:
1. Kinsey's crazy arm thing.
2. Minor cake movement from Guy on left (Dale?)
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Am I a bad person for enjoying this image?
(http://i34.tinypic.com/1230ihj.jpg)
Top 2 Reactions:
1. Kinsey's crazy arm thing.
2. Minor cake movement from Guy on left (Dale?)
No. Not at all. There were a few moments of last episode were I was muttering to myself "C'mon internet, make this into a gif."
Also, last episode seemed to share a lot with a campy True Blood episode. Not that I'm complaining.
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1. Kinsey's crazy arm thing.
I also like that his arm leaves a big white triangle on his shirt.
I didn't see this -- do I even want to know what exploded all over these people?
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Foot.
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Am I a bad person for enjoying this image?
Thank you. The ability to stare at this at work whenever I want makes me very happy.
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Season 2 and 3 are On Demand. Would I be missing too much by skipping season 1?
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Honestly, and sadly, I'd say you absolutely would. Largely in plot developments, but also in terms of defining the characters.
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So what's going on with Sal? Did Don believe his story, but think that he should have "befriended" the Lucky Strikes guy for business reasons? (That was my first interpretation.) Or did Don not believe his story, and think that Sal *did* get onto very good terms with the Lucky Strikes guy, or even that Sal hit on the Lucky Strikes guy himself?
Anyway, those last two eps were both depressing. Every single main character is a creep in Mad Men now.
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Every single main character is a creep in Mad Men now.
I thought that was firmly established by the end of season 2.
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So what's going on with Sal? Did Don believe his story, but think that he should have "befriended" the Lucky Strikes guy for business reasons? (That was my first interpretation.) Or did Don not believe his story, and think that Sal *did* get onto very good terms with the Lucky Strikes guy, or even that Sal hit on the Lucky Strikes guy himself?
Anyway, those last two eps were both depressing. Every single main character is a creep in Mad Men now.
I think Don thinks Sal made a pass at the guy. Don may be pretty tolerant for 1963 but he's still a man of his era. His response to Sal's "What if it was some girl" does make me wonder what if it was Peggy or Joan in that situation. I think he'd fire them in a heartbeat too.
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Poor Sal couldn't win no matter what. If he'd done what the Lucky Strike guy wanted, LS guy would probably have been so ashamed/worried/etc. that he'd still have insisted Sal be fired. It's less likely that would have happened to a lady who had agreed to canoodle.
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I definitely interpreted it as Don saying Sal should have done something with the LS guy for the good of the account. If it were Harry that had a guy make a pass at him, Don would have reacted differently. Of course, this is not to say that Don thinks Sal actually did reject the guy. Don knows that either way, Sal was screwed because he didn't have control over his personal life, as evidenced by his complete meltdown.
Don is a character that I can respect, even if I think he's an asshole. Sal is a character I have sympathy for, but very little respect. Can anyone honestly say differently?
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I definitely interpreted it as Don saying Sal should have done something with the LS guy for the good of the account. If it were Harry that had a guy make a pass at him, Don would have reacted differently. Of course, this is not to say that Don thinks Sal actually did reject the guy. Don knows that either way, Sal was screwed because he didn't have control over his personal life, as evidenced by his complete meltdown.
Don is a character that I can respect, even if I think he's an asshole. Sal is a character I have sympathy for, but very little respect. Can anyone honestly say differently?
I have more respect for Sal as a human than Don. I would respect Don as a boss or co-worker but from the shows I've seen (I have not seen every episode) I have little respect for him when he leaves the agency door-- he cheats on his wife constantly; he's a crappy dad; he's dishonest about his past; and, worst of all, the way he nonchalantly harms people with his second-hand smoke galls me.
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I'm excited/confused that my theory that Conrad Hilton is grooming Don to assassinate JFK in the season finale has sprung up elsewhere (someone came to the same conclusion in the AVClub comments for this week's episode). They haven't gotten into the same level of detail - those two Italian guys who tried to pick up Betty are Hilton's hitmen, Sally's teacher as Don's Queen of Diamonds handler, Hilton choosing Don because the original Don Draper was an expert marksman in the War - yet, but this clearly means it must be true. I think this week indicated that "I want the moon" will be the hypnotic trigger Hitlon uses to make Don go to the grassy knoll.
I definitely interpreted it as Don saying Sal should have done something with the LS guy for the good of the account.
Yes, in fact, didn't Don himself reluctantly agree to sleep with Jimmy Barrett's wife last season in order to save the Utz deal? In his own Draper-logic way, he wasn't expecting Sal to do anything that he didn't already do in service of keeping a wealthy client happy.
In this show more than almost any other, I do not equate sympathy or morality with enjoyment of the characters. Roger Sterling is loathsome, and I even know and have worked directly for someone just like him and didn't enjoy it, but as a TV character, I love watching him.
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In this show more than almost any other, I do not equate sympathy or morality with enjoyment of the characters. Roger Sterling is loathsome, and I even know and have worked directly for someone just like him and didn't enjoy it, but as a TV character, I love watching him.
This is my feeling as well. Don Draper is portrayed in an even less sympathetic light than Tony Soprano. But I think the show boils down to what Sterling Cooper said in the first season: "This country was built and run by men with worse stories than whatever you've imagined here." The show builds a beautiful stained glass depiction of an era, takes a hammer and breaks it down piece by piece, then repeats the process.
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I'm glad they aren't seeking sympathy for Don's character as much as they might have in the first two seasons. Sure, he cheated and drank and lied, but the harder edges of the time, namely the racism, sexism and heterosexism never seemed to sway Don as much as Roger or Betty. I'll always sympathize with the non-bigot in the room, if surrounded by bigots. But now Don's acting out the times, with his constant cruelty toward Peggy and in this past episode, his treatment of Salvatore, specifically using the phrase "you people."
I really thought they went too easy on him for a while, but now they seem to be showing the rougher edges.
This whole post, of course, hinging on not considering Don's actions in season one anti-Semitic, which while they certainly were, I think the show was trying to justify them, or at least explain them.
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But now Don's acting out the times, with his constant cruelty toward Peggy
I guess I haven't really viewed it as sexism. I get the impression he thinks she's being greedy and trying to get ahead too fast. Obviously the fact that she started as his secretary has something to do with it, but he's treated Pete in a similar way in the past.
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There's not one redeemable decent likeable character on this show. While it is sexy, I'm done with it.
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My mom worked for a Madison Avenue ad agency, Young & Rubicam, in the '70s. She says Mad Men is pretty accurate, and watching it every week reminds her how stressed out she was during her years there.
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But now Don's acting out the times, with his constant cruelty toward Peggy
I guess I haven't really viewed it as sexism. I get the impression he thinks she's being greedy and trying to get ahead too fast. Obviously the fact that she started as his secretary has something to do with it, but he's treated Pete in a similar way in the past.
Yeah, he was definitely cruel but I thought he had a point about her getting better first, even though there was a component of sexism ("You have a job a grown man would want").
It's hard to care about likability too much, post-Sopranos. How many other series are there with three weirdos like Peggy, Pete and Betty in such prominent roles?
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But now Don's acting out the times, with his constant cruelty toward Peggy
I guess I haven't really viewed it as sexism. I get the impression he thinks she's being greedy and trying to get ahead too fast. Obviously the fact that she started as his secretary has something to do with it, but he's treated Pete in a similar way in the past.
Yeah, he was definitely cruel but I thought he had a point about her getting better first, even though there was a component of sexism ("You have a job a grown man would want").
It's hard to care about likability too much, post-Sopranos. How many other series are there with three weirdos like Peggy, Pete and Betty in such prominent roles?
I agree about him being a bit in the right about yelling at Peggy. The first time he did it, she asked for a raise immediately after he came out of a fight with the British about the staff spending too much on note pads, horrible timing on her part. And she followed up that rebuke with her incredibly creepy line about how Don has so much, and she wants everything in his life. That was Robot Pete level weird. I really do hope she and Pete end up together as thrillkillers in the next season or two.
The second time he yelled at her was after that very clumsy attempt to get dirt on the Hilton account. More bad timing on her part and he was right to let her know how obvious she was being and how that wouldn't play with anybody. He put her on the account in the end anyway.
I actually took this past week's back and forth of the window ads to be the most he's treated her like a real colleague. Telling her that just because he had an idea doesn't mean it's not a bad idea and that she and her team should keep giving him lousy ideas until they came up with a good one was sound Draperian advice.
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She might also want to stop with the smug looks every time things don't go Don's way with a client. If someone could set their time machine to "Fictional Characters: 1963" and convey that advice, I'd be relieved. Thanks.
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The nerve of Peggy wanting to be paid the same amount of money for the same work. What does she think this is, the 22nd Century?
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I hope this season ends with Kennedy not getting killed.
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I love Mad Men - it's like the Sopranos for TV (not HBO).
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GAH!!! I was all set to love that episode until the end, when Don Draper suddenly became Snidely Whiplash. Maybe that was meant to be the interpretation of Betty's brain, where the whole world is a cartoon.
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I hope this season ends with Kennedy not getting killed.
"Enjoy the world as it is. They'll change it and never give you a reason."
I really liked that line. This show is teetering on the edge of daytime soap, and will fall into the dish if this season doesn't end with something spectacular.
Perhaps an alternate reality isn't the answer, but something utterly ridiculous needs to happen.
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I hope this season ends with Kennedy not getting killed.
"Enjoy the world as it is. They'll change it and never give you a reason."
I really liked that line. This show is teetering on the edge of daytime soap, and will fall into the dish if this season doesn't end with something spectacular.
Perhaps an alternate reality isn't the answer, but something utterly ridiculous needs to happen.
something utterly ridiculous: See lawnmower foot.
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Lawnmower foot was obviously foreshadowing the assassination. And the assassination is obviously going to happen at the very end of the season finale, you mark my words.
I miss Sal. I miss Joan.
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Lawnmower foot was perfectly reasonable because there was a lawnmower in the office and a drunken party. It happens.
I want utterly ridiculous.
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Ridiculous Plot Twists That Have Arguably Been Foreshadowed:
- Kinsey joins a violent communist group.
- Pete meets an attractive African-American woman, sleeps with her, then awakens to find himself covered in blood.
- Conrad Hilton inspires Don to become a born-again Christian.
- Betty accidentally kills their baby, blames nanny.
- Betty intentionally kills their baby, blames nanny.
- On November 23, Burt Cooper receives a short and cryptic phone call, takes a drink, and stares grimly into the middle distance.
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Lawnmower foot was obviously foreshadowing the assassination. And the assassination is obviously going to happen at the very end of the season finale, you mark my words.
I miss Sal. I miss Joan.
I still think they're going to deal with the assassination because of the wedding, but they have spent a hell of a lot of time walking in circles this season.
YES. More Sal. More Joan. Though it looks like she returns next week. When are she and Sal going to be hired by Duck for the Duck v. Don pitch-a-thon? Wes, somehow work in the birth of Billy Mays. It's time.
And maybe "pudding?" was Cooper's query to Sterling about if he was in on the assassination too.
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I still think they're going to deal with the assassination because of the wedding, but they have spent a hell of a lot of time walking in circles this season.
That's why I was excited last episode when it looked like something might actually HAPPEN next episode!
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Something did happen in this last episode: Betty discovered Don's a fake (or at least found evidence that puts her on the road to that discovery). Sure, nothing has come of it yet, but that was pretty huge, don't you think?
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Something did happen in this last episode: Betty discovered Don's a fake (or at least found evidence that puts her on the road to that discovery). Sure, nothing has come of it yet, but that was pretty huge, don't you think?
That's actually what I meant. I thought this episode was great because it laid the groundwork for major plot advancement.
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Yes. I wasn't addressing that specifically to you, todd, but rather to those here and elsewhere on the Internet who found the last episode uneventful.
I think what I liked best about the last ep., though, was Peggy's instant understanding when Paul explained he'd had something but forgotten to write it down, her urging Paul to tell Don, and Don's just-as-instant understanding when he did. There was a kind of camaraderie of the creatives that superseded the hierarchy.
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The title of the next episode made me consider another moment that would be sufficiently ridiculous:
We learn that Whitman was an assumed family name and that Don Draper is actually a Gypsy.
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Yes. I wasn't addressing that specifically to you, todd, but rather to those here and elsewhere on the Internet who found the last episode uneventful.
I think what I liked best about the last ep., though, was Peggy's instant understanding when Paul explained he'd had something but forgotten to write it down, her urging Paul to tell Don, and Don's just-as-instant understanding when he did. There was a kind of camaraderie of the creatives that superseded the hierarchy.
Yes, the Betty discovery is a nice bit of plot development, and it was good to see Don's reaction to Peggy be something other than "UGH. SHUT UP!"
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HOLY SMOKES!
That scene melted my face. I didn't blink.
I don't care about JFK anymore.
A+++++++ WOULD WATCH AGAIN!!!!!!
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Riveting. Hamm is always good, but his body language during that whole sequence was fantastic.
Still, gotta say I prefer the leaked alternate ending:
Neighbor: "And who are you supposed to be?"
Don: "Businessman!" (winks)
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One thing that has interested me about a period show like this is the value of the dollar. Finally, I've had to look up how much the 1962 dollar was worth in today's $. According to this site, it seems to be about a 1:7 ratio.
http://www.measuringworth.com/uscompare/ (http://www.measuringworth.com/uscompare/)
I'm probably reading those numbers all wrong, but it just drives me nuts when they mention something like Don's salary (was it $50,000?) and I have no idea what that means by today's standards.
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Probably the best episode theyve done so far and the ending was fantastic.
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Agreed, I think we got a real show of Jon Hamm's ability as an actor.
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All around I thought it was really tightly put together.
-the correlation between the poisoned name of Horsemeat's dogfood and Don's name issues.
-I think the closing song was from Oliver!'s orphan song. Which opened in NY in the fall of '63. Referenced by Joan in an earlier episode.
-the casting of Horsemeat to look very much like Jane was pretty good.
And hearkening back to the conversation about all of the characters being creeps, I don't think that Joan is a creep. Or Peggy, although she is creepy.
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Riveting. Hamm is always good, but his body language during that whole sequence was fantastic.
Still, gotta say I prefer the leaked alternate ending:
Neighbor: "And who are you supposed to be?"
Don: "Businessman!" (winks)
I wasn't able to see this last episode until yesterday, but your ending would have made a great episode into the greatest episode. I'm still laughing at this.
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Got to say, I found it a little unbelievable that Joan's hubby wasn't more angry than he appeared to be about having a vase broken over his head. I would have expected that character to beat the crap out of her.
John Hamm was wonderful in the big scene with JJ. The way his hand thudded to the desk . . . The way he dropped that cigarette . . . Exceedingly well done.
In terms of the story, the revelation could be the best thing that could have happened to that marriage, by the way.
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Fuckin' hell Jon Hamm is talented. Man that was great.
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It was nice having Roger around for more than just a few throwaway jokes.
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Fuckin' hell Jon Hamm is talented. Man that was great.
Lately he seems to be everywhere doing comedy -- from 'Between Two Ferns' (playing it more or less straight) to the Lex Luthor thing on Funny Or Die, guest bits on 'I Love Movies' and other podcasts (though I missed him stuff on 30 Rock). He's always really funny and at ease in that milieu. And then everytime I watch a new 'Mad Men' I'm blown away all over again by what a serious dramatic actor he is. How can one man be so blessed?
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Not to mention handsome and the epitome of a strong male figure.
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Fuckin' hell Jon Hamm is talented. Man that was great.
Lately he seems to be everywhere doing comedy -- from 'Between Two Ferns' (playing it more or less straight) to the Lex Luthor thing on Funny Or Die, guest bits on 'I Love Movies' and other podcasts (though I missed him stuff on 30 Rock). He's always really funny and at ease in that milieu. And then everytime I watch a new 'Mad Men' I'm blown away all over again by what a serious dramatic actor he is. How can one man be so blessed?
Did I see that he's on one of the Kevin Pollak episodes too? I haven't gotten a chance to watch more than one or two past the PFT one.
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Fuckin' hell Jon Hamm is talented. Man that was great.
Lately he seems to be everywhere doing comedy -- from 'Between Two Ferns' (playing it more or less straight) to the Lex Luthor thing on Funny Or Die, guest bits on 'I Love Movies' and other podcasts (though I missed him stuff on 30 Rock). He's always really funny and at ease in that milieu. And then everytime I watch a new 'Mad Men' I'm blown away all over again by what a serious dramatic actor he is. How can one man be so blessed?
Not to mention handsome and the epitome of a strong male figure.
Get a room, you guys.
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"The End of the World" - I just put that song on a mix cd the other day.
Also, did Duck call Peggy "Pee-Wee" after calling her office as "Mr. Herman?"
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Also, did Duck call Peggy "Pee-Wee" after calling her office as "Mr. Herman?"
I couldn't stop laughing about that one.
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I wish season 4 started soon.
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"This is your pitch?"
The best part of the episode was its Ducklessness.
I hope that plane crashes.
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So now Mad Men is stealing ideas from Entourage? Wow.
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So now Mad Men is stealing ideas from Entourage? Wow.
How will you go a whole year without any shows to hate? I hope something pointless comes along to fill the void.
Although speaking of stealing ideas, when the show opened with Don in bed I wondered if he'd finally joined the New Jersey mafia.
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So now Mad Men is stealing ideas from Entourage? Wow.
How will you go a whole year without any shows to hate? I hope something pointless comes along to fill the void.
Although speaking of stealing ideas, when the show opened with Don in bed I wondered if he'd finally joined the New Jersey mafia.
When Don confronts Betty about Henry and says "you'll get nothing", The Sopranos definitely came to mind.
Mike, why do you watch the show if you don't like it? The good-looking people/design?
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I think Mike just has assigned himself the job of taking shows everybody loves down a peg or two. Bless you sir, you're doing the lord's work.
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So now Mad Men is stealing ideas from Entourage? Wow.
How will you go a whole year without any shows to hate? I hope something pointless comes along to fill the void.
Although speaking of stealing ideas, when the show opened with Don in bed I wondered if he'd finally joined the New Jersey mafia.
When Don confronts Betty about Henry and says "you'll get nothing", The Sopranos definitely came to mind.
Mike, why do you watch the show if you don't like it? The good-looking people/design?
Don's pappy's demise also reminded me of Steve the Drunk from Deadwood. What was Chekhov's rule about drunk hillbillies and horses...
But wow, the divorce notwithstanding, I was expecting something way darker than this episode's "getting the band back together" vibe. Still don't see how they could bring Sal back, what with Sterling Cooper Draper British Guy still handling Lucky Strike and him probably not being eager to work with the people that unjustly fired him again.
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I can't remember being more satsified by a season finale. Truly stunning, and Jon Hamm took it to another level. Again.
I do hope, as the finale implied, that Ken Cosgrove, Paul Kinsely, and Duck Phillips will not be heard from again. They were swell characters and all, but I love the idea that Mad Men, like Sterling Cooper Draper Price itself, is pulling ranks. Only the strong survive, and that hotel room contained some of the strongest characters I've ever seen.
TOP TIER.
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The Kennedy assassination was handled deftly, no? I mean, why even mention it if you're going to ignore it completely? Why not pretend it didn't even happen ala Tarantino so that we can continue to be spellbound by which accounts will be coming to the new agency?
Correction: It turns out I missed the assassination episode. I thought I was up to date before last night's episode, but I guess there's a one week lag of episodes on AMC on Demand. I will watch it tonight.
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The Kennedy assassination was handled deftly, no? I mean, why even mention it if you're going to ignore it completely? Why not pretend it didn't even happen ala Tarantino so that we can continue to be spellbound by which accounts will be coming to the new agency?
Obviously they don't get that everyone is clamoring for this show to turn into JFK Part 4,758. At least Roger's wife is apparently busy trying to unravel the conspiracy. A smarter show would've cut that Peggy-Don scene to show her tracking the angle of the shooting.
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A smarter show would've cut that Peggy-Don scene to show her tracking the angle of the shooting.
Back, and to the left ... back, and to the left ....
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decent finale, but this season was a bit ho-hum for me.
I have a question though: at one point, Don says to the British guy "Nobody knows how to do what you do". What is it exactly that this guy does? Is it simply arriving at a business and cutting the fat and making things more efficient?
Also: what the hell is Roger's job?
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What is it exactly any of them do? There is as much mumbo jumbo in Mad Men as there was in Star Trek or Battlestar Galactica.
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What is it exactly that this guy does?
Polishing his glasses and delivering bad news.
Also: what the hell is Roger's job?
Drinking. Not even joking about that one. If he went sober he'd be worthless.
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decent finale, but this season was a bit ho-hum for me.
I have a question though: at one point, Don says to the British guy "Nobody knows how to do what you do". What is it exactly that this guy does? Is it simply arriving at a business and cutting the fat and making things more efficient?
Also: what the hell is Roger's job?
Roger is an account man, though it's clear that he hasn't done much work (other than maybe maintaining his personal relationships with the clients) in a long while. Pryce does seem to be the efficiency expert.
What is it exactly any of them do? There is as much mumbo jumbo in Mad Men as there was in Star Trek or Battlestar Galactica.
I don't think there is much mumbo jumbo when it comes to their positions in the company, it's all pretty straightforward.
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Bets is a stuck up bitch.
And yeah, you need a numbers guy, a relationship guy, an idea guy, and guys to do the tedious work. Makes sense to me.
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Weren't Don and Roger not getting along, and now all the sudden they're friends again?
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Weren't Don and Roger not getting along, and now all the sudden they're friends again?
There was a growing animosity between them but clearly things weren't bad enough for them to make nice for the good of the deal. I thought the scene of them at the bar talking about Betty and Henry felt genuine.
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Yeah, it reminded me of Ari's and Lloyd's heart to heart before they started the new agency.
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Yeah, it reminded me of Ari's and Lloyd's heart to heart before they started the new agency.
Don't worry, next season Don becomes a Hoarder.
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I want hair that good when my marriage collapses.
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Finally getting around to season 1 and I'm on ep 4. Seems like the entire plot revolves around slick men and the women they mistreat. There's more to this show, right?
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Here's how I break it down:
Season 1: Men are creeps
Season 2: Women are creeps, too
Season 3: Don Draper's our hero!
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Season 1: Men are creeps
Season 2: Women without red hair are unsure of themselves
Season 3: Men are hilarious
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Season 1: Men are creeps
Season 2: Women without red hair are unsure of themselves (and even the redheads get raped)
Season 3: Men are hilarious
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Season 1: Men are creeps
Season 2: Women without red hair are unsure of themselves (and even the redheads get raped)
Season 3: Men are hilarious
Beat me to it, Sarah.
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Season 1: Men are creeps
Season 2: Women without red hair are unsure of themselves (and even the redheads get raped)
Season 3: Men are hilarious and much better SNL hosts
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I bet Joanie would be good on SNL.
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#1 reason why this week's episode was great: Gamera got more screen time than Betty. I refuse to believe that wasn't a shout-out to MST3K.
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#1 reason why this week's episode was great: Gamera got more screen time than Betty. I refuse to believe that wasn't a shout-out to MST3K.
Seeing as how Gamera is friend to all children and Betty is a pretty shitty mother most of the time, I hope they're preparing us for an actual showdown for the end of this season, when Bobby Draper calls in Gamera for help. Or at least a reveal that Bert Cooper is one of the Phantoms of Krankor from Prince of Space. Too bad they made Glenn work at the tree lot instead of setting him up as a bootblack.
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#1 reason why this week's episode was great: Gamera got more screen time than Betty. I refuse to believe that wasn't a shout-out to MST3K.
Seeing as how Gamera is friend to all children and Betty is a pretty shitty mother most of the time, I hope they're preparing us for an actual showdown for the end of this season, when Bobby Draper calls in Gamera for help. Or at least a reveal that Bert Cooper is one of the Phantoms of Krankor from Prince of Space. Too bad they made Glenn work at the tree lot instead of setting him up as a bootblack.
Wes, I was just picturing the Draper kids cheering on Gamera as he comes to their rescue.
Bobby: "We love you Gamera!"
Sally: "Gamera is my boyfriend!"
Also, that storyline could provide the origin of Don Draper's next advertising catchphrase: "Daddy, I want a Coke." (How deep can we go into Gamera reference territory here?)
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Weird historical anachronism in this week's episode: that doctor quoting an Eddie Money song to Joanie at the end of her visit.
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I was SO in the mood for a funny episode.
Kudos to the writing team (and director John Slattery?!) for the joke-layering in the crying scene. Holy shit.
EDIT: Fuck, man; why you gotta end it with such a depressing scene like that, Weiner-bro? Do I look like I wanna watch Up again? Now I'm going to bed knowing my love will transmute to senility. Thanks, Sterling Cooper Draper Price!
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I was SO in the mood for a funny episode.
Kudos to the writing team (and director John Slattery?!) for the joke-layering in the crying scene. Holy shit.
EDIT: Fuck, man; why you gotta end it with such a depressing scene like that, Weiner-bro? Do I look like I wanna watch Up again? Now I'm going to bed knowing my love will transmute to senility. Thanks, Sterling Cooper Draper Price!
Peggy peeping into Don's office had me in hysterics.
What was the music at the party? It sounded like the Velvet Underground but it's early 1965 in the show and that's before they really got the band together.
Poking around on wikipedia I see there was some downtown drone going on as early as 1964. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theatre_of_Eternal_Music (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theatre_of_Eternal_Music)
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Poking around on wikipedia I see there was some downtown drone going on as early as 1964. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theatre_of_Eternal_Music (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theatre_of_Eternal_Music)
Yep. Lamonte Young and John Cale were doing some pretty avant stuff.
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Yeah, but I don't think they played at parties. Maybe ones LaMonte Young held in his loft.
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Yeah, but I don't think they played at parties. Maybe ones LaMonte Young held in his loft.
I didn't know about LaMonte Young. Here's a good drone, but it's not a guitar drone.
La Monte Young - Pre-Tortoise Dream Music, Part Two (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aLitnrAd9jg&feature=related#)
Off to find 1964/1965 guitar drone music!
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I hate cliffhangers. I'll be wondering whether she got the pears all week.
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When does Don go to AA? I say, season finale, last scene.
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I missed this logic.
I understand that Pete 'forces' his father-in-law to give the agency more business but what exactly is his leverage? For lack of a better turn of phrase, how does he 'muscle' him?
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When does Don go to AA? I say, season finale, last scene.
Double down he introduces himself as Dick Whitman. Freddie Rumson, sitting next to him, spits out his coffee on to a tray of croissants. Cue Herman's Hermits.
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When does Don go to AA? I say, season finale, last scene.
What about Roger Sterling?
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Don seems like the kind of guy who would just white-knuckle his way through it. I'm not convinced that he's going to AA.
I'm 99% sure that Joan's husband is going to bite it in 'Nam though. Or is that too obvious, and they're just trying to wrong foot us?
I understand that Pete 'forces' his father-in-law to give the agency more business but what exactly is his leverage? For lack of a better turn of phrase, how does he 'muscle' him?
Yeah, that was a bit confusing. Considering that he was so nervous about the subject, when he finally raised it, he did it in a really dickish way. Maybe since there's a kid on the way, the father-in-law has even more at stake in terms of ensuring Pete's livelihood?
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I'm 99% sure that Joan's husband is going to bite it in 'Nam though.
I'm guessing he comes back, but he is even more rape-y than he is now.
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Don seems like the kind of guy who would just white-knuckle his way through it. I'm not convinced that he's going to AA.
I don't know. Freddie doesn't serve much of a purpose otherwise.
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You could be right. But like with the Viet Nam thing, it seems a bit too on the nose.
Could be that Freddie's there because the show needed an older (and old school) creative type. He has an interesting relationship with Peggy.
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QUESTION:
Why is the only thing that's not old-timey on Mad Men the opening theme?
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I hate cliffhangers. I'll be wondering whether she got the pears all week.
I second that.
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You could be right. But like with the Viet Nam thing, it seems a bit too on the nose.
Could be that Freddie's there because the show needed an older (and old school) creative type. He has an interesting relationship with Peggy.
I really like all the old guys on Mad Men. I loved the shot of Cooper on the couch eating an apple.
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QUESTION:
Why is the only thing that's not old-timey on Mad Men the opening theme?
I've always thought that was funny too, an RJD2 song for a show like that just seemed weird. They used a Decemberists song in one episode too, remember that?
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Don seems like the kind of guy who would just white-knuckle his way through it. I'm not convinced that he's going to AA.
I don't know. Freddie doesn't serve much of a purpose otherwise.
After last night's episode, I believe you may be right on this one. Don does seem to be on the fast track to bottoming out. That scene of him passing out in bed, and then waking up again was pretty hilarious.
A day or two after my initial reply to this AA business, I had a dream that in the very next episode, Don made his way to an AA meeting, and I immediately had to come to this thread and write that I had been wrong about this.
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Mrs. Blankenship is the wild card.
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is Mrs. Blankenship don's secretary? she's hilarious, on last episode someone asked for restaurant advice and she said "I DON'T WORK FOR YOU"
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Problem: I can't watch Elizabeth Moss without thinking about Xenu.
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Problem: I can't watch Elizabeth Moss without thinking about Xenu.
Apparently, neither could Fred Armisen.
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Problem: I can't watch Elizabeth Moss without thinking about Xenu.
Have you tried watching in the nude?
Just as the Clio awards were very obvious metacommentary on the Emmys that night, I like to think the kinda dumb Peggy vs. Liberal Sex Dude hotel scene was Matthew Weiner specifically responding to AP Mike's dislike of Mad Men. My prediction is that, by season's end, Cosgrove lands SCDP the Craftsman account, and Peggy and Sexist Dude spend an afternoon trying to come up with a pitch for shovels that sees the two of them and Joan's husband - freshly back from one month in 'Nam where he killed ten villagers - digging holes in someone's basement. Possibly nude.
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What does Peggy say to Don at the bar? "I try not to ... but then [mumble] comes up out of nowhere ... [pig?] [reynolds?]"
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What does Peggy say to Don at the bar? "I try not to ... but then [mumble] comes up out of nowhere ... [pig?] [reynolds?]"
I couldn't tell either but read online this morning that it was "...at playgrounds." Which begs the question, what is she doing hanging around playgrounds? Giving free stress tests?
Classic episode, by the way. They should really release Roger Sterling's book as a promotional tie-in to the series, like with Laura Palmer's diary.
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What does Peggy say to Don at the bar? "I try not to ... but then [mumble] comes up out of nowhere ... [pig?] [reynolds?]"
I couldn't tell either but read online this morning that it was "...at playgrounds." Which begs the question, what is she doing hanging around playgrounds? Giving free stress tests?
Classic episode, by the way. They should really release Roger Sterling's book as a promotional tie-in to the series, like with Laura Palmer's diary.
Aha. That makes sense. I figured maybe we weren't supposed to hear it. I'd rather hear mumbling than obviously dubbed-over dialogue anyway.
The last three episodes have been fantastic. There was as much action in the last episode as the whole first season.
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What does Peggy say to Don at the bar? "I try not to ... but then [mumble] comes up out of nowhere ... [pig?] [reynolds?]"
I couldn't tell either but read online this morning that it was "...at playgrounds." Which begs the question, what is she doing hanging around playgrounds? Giving free stress tests?
Classic episode, by the way. They should really release Roger Sterling's book as a promotional tie-in to the series, like with Laura Palmer's diary.
Aha. That makes sense. I figured maybe we weren't supposed to hear it. I'd rather hear mumbling than obviously dubbed-over dialogue anyway.
The last three episodes have been fantastic. There was as much action in the last episode as the whole first season.
Anybody else catch the Lyle Evans reference? Brilliant.
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Hamm absolutely crushed it in this most recent episode.
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Problem: I can't watch Elizabeth Moss without thinking about Xenu.
Have you tried watching in the nude?
Come on. She went through a lot when she was kidnapped by the Qumari terrorists.
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What does Peggy say to Don at the bar? "I try not to ... but then [mumble] comes up out of nowhere ... [pig?] [reynolds?]"
I couldn't tell either but read online this morning that it was "...at playgrounds." Which begs the question, what is she doing hanging around playgrounds? Giving free stress tests?
Classic episode, by the way. They should really release Roger Sterling's book as a promotional tie-in to the series, like with Laura Palmer's diary.
Aha. That makes sense. I figured maybe we weren't supposed to hear it. I'd rather hear mumbling than obviously dubbed-over dialogue anyway.
The last three episodes have been fantastic. There was as much action in the last episode as the whole first season.
Anybody else catch the Lyle Evans reference? Brilliant.
Were you one of the people that made Lyle Evans a Google trend?
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Hamm absolutely crushed it in this most recent episode.
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Hamm absolutely crushed it in this most recent episode.
That he did. So what will the Peggy dynamic be moving forward? Does he do the Draper ignore and move forward, or does Peggy becomes his new mommy stand-in?
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Classic episode, by the way. They should really release Roger Sterling's book as a promotional tie-in to the series, like with Laura Palmer's diary.
Sterling's book should also be written by Lynch's daughter. I would settle, though, if they just keep "I always wanted chocolate ice cream, but my mother made us eat vanilla" in the Previously On... segment for every episode of the rest of the series.
I'm going to be massively disappointed if they brought in some ringer to do Don's throw up noises and it wasn't Hamm himself. I should have checked the credits for a "Sick Whitman ... Frank Welker" credit.
Other things I hope they have Don predict in 1965:
-"Look it's your Festival, but this is the 1960s, and people are ready for change. You tell this kid that if he wants to plug in, the people are going to plug in with him."
-"I want Harry on a plane back out to Los Angeles this afternoon. You didn't see this show, Bert. It...I...I'm telling you, we're living in a post-Lost In Space world now, a world where every television show will have a robot, and our clients will only advertise on programs with robots, machine men or automatons!"
-"His name is Poppin' Fresh! I'll tell you what, Pete, if people just start calling him the Pillsbury Doughboy, I'll throw myself out of this office window in two seasons."
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Were you one of the people that made Lyle Evans a Google trend?
Almost. I didn't google "Lyle Evans" the first time because I figured it was just a throwaway line to show that Roger is older than everybody else and people didn't get his references. The second time it was mentioned, in the tape for his autobiography, I figured it was some famous quack doctor. That's when I googled it, and what I found was a bunch of articles about people googling it. So now we know what Roger meant when he was talking about Honda -- we might as well have a doctor cut off our balls. It's like a callback in reverse.
Arrested Development did that too. They had a bunch of hidden jokes about Buster losing his hand before he lost it. It's like a bonus for people who watch it a second time.
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I just finished watching the first two seasons of Mad Men. I didn't think that it could possibly live up to the hype. I was wrong. It is as good as advertised. It's superbly written and superbly acted. Just a fantastic show.
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Hamm absolutely crushed it in this most recent episode.
That he did. So what will the Peggy dynamic be moving forward? Does he do the Draper ignore and move forward, or does Peggy becomes his new mommy stand-in?
He was as amazing in that episode as the writing was. I think at the very least he'll just stop treating her like garbage at work.
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I just finished watching the first two seasons of Mad Men. I didn't think that it could possibly live up to the hype. I was wrong. It is as good as advertised. It's superbly written and superbly acted. Just a fantastic show.
I think this season might just be the best one, at least so far.
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Yeah, I think the show is getting better.
TIER ONE!!
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Geebus, Joan might as well have been wielding a blade at the end of the last episode. I almost got misty when she broke down in front of her husband. She's sooo lonely. BTW, was it just me or were the comments made by the creative kid they heave-ho'd borderline criminally offensive?
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I couldn't tell if the latest episode was really bad or not.
Was it?
I think it was.
But maybe it wasn't?
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I couldn't tell if the latest episode was really bad or not.
Was it?
I think it was.
But maybe it wasn't?
Allow me to clarify. Voiceover=terrible, Don=weirdly floppy-looking whenever they tell him to be anything other than stern, Peggy/Joan awesomeness=awesome.
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I like that Don can't be anything but stern or selfishly emotional. It was also missing Roger.
I told my gal that this was Don's cleaning-up-my-act episode. She replied: NOOOOOOO!
It may have been the pool and the voiceover. It felt A LOT like one of those wishy-washy season 2 episodes. It's still an excellent show.
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Geebus, Joan might as well have been wielding a blade at the end of the last episode. I almost got misty when she broke down in front of her husband. She's sooo lonely. BTW, was it just me or were the comments made by the creative kid they heave-ho'd borderline criminally offensive?
I wouldn't go that far.
I kind of liked that guy he added a nice balance to everybody else's self serious attitude in the office. I secretly kind of liked that Joan finally got put in her place too. I like how they are creeping the 60's attitudes more and more into the show.
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Geebus, Joan might as well have been wielding a blade at the end of the last episode. I almost got misty when she broke down in front of her husband. She's sooo lonely. BTW, was it just me or were the comments made by the creative kid they heave-ho'd borderline criminally offensive?
I wouldn't go that far.
I kind of liked that guy he added a nice balance to everybody else's self serious attitude in the office. I secretly kind of liked that Joan finally got put in her place too. I like how they are creeping the 60's attitudes more and more into the show.
Yeah, maybe she should get raped, like he charmingly suggested. How about in Don's office? Boy, that would put her in her place!
I'm confused about Peggy moving that Stan guy around to different accounts. I thought when he was introduced he had a higher title and therefore she had to take his shit, which doesn't seem to be the case now.
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I'm confused about Peggy moving that Stan guy around to different accounts. I thought when he was introduced he had a higher title and therefore she had to take his shit, which doesn't seem to be the case now.
I think it was just that he had experience and the chops to command respect from Peggy, but no official rung up on the pecking order. The naked sesh at the hotel settled the sich with Stan.
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I don't think he was suggesting she actually get raped either, i think he was using rape as a metaphor for sex in the heat of an argument. Which is worse though suggesting rape or wishing death on someone in Vietnam.?
Joan is about the only character who hasn't shown any dynamic or growth since the beginning of the show. We get it shes a strong woman with an attitude, show us another side of her.
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I don't think he was suggesting she actually get raped either, i think he was using rape as a metaphor for sex in the heat of an argument. Which is worse though suggesting rape or wishing death on someone in Vietnam.?
Joan is about the only character who hasn't shown any dynamic or growth since the beginning of the show. We get it shes a strong woman with an attitude, show us another side of her.
...seriously?
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I don't think he was suggesting she actually get raped either, i think he was using rape as a metaphor for sex in the heat of an argument. Which is worse though suggesting rape or wishing death on someone in Vietnam.?
Joan is about the only character who hasn't shown any dynamic or growth since the beginning of the show. We get it shes a strong woman with an attitude, show us another side of her.
...seriously?
Which part?
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Joan is about the only character who hasn't shown any dynamic or growth since the beginning of the show. We get it shes a strong woman with an attitude, show us another side of her.
You don't think Joan has shown any growth, and that she has been 2D? Just off the top of my head I can think of numerous times she has broken her "strong woman with attitude" archetype. She has been uncharacteristically kind and empathetic with almost every single major player at SCDP at one point or another, but she also been quite the opposite of strong with episodes of spite and cattiness. IMO, only Don Draper has been a more dynamic character.
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Joan is about the only character who hasn't shown any dynamic or growth since the beginning of the show. We get it shes a strong woman with an attitude, show us another side of her.
You don't think Joan has shown any growth, and that she has been 2D? Just off the top of my head I can think of numerous times she has broken her "strong woman with attitude" archetype. She has been uncharacteristically kind and empathetic with almost every single major player at SCDP at one point or another, but she also been quite the opposite of strong with episodes of spite and cattiness. IMO, only Don Draper has been a more dynamic character.
Excellent post, CaptKarl. I wholeheartedly agree.
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Joan is about the only character who hasn't shown any dynamic or growth since the beginning of the show. We get it shes a strong woman with an attitude, show us another side of her.
You don't think Joan has shown any growth, and that she has been 2D? Just off the top of my head I can think of numerous times she has broken her "strong woman with attitude" archetype. She has been uncharacteristically kind and empathetic with almost every single major player at SCDP at one point or another, but she also been quite the opposite of strong with episodes of spite and cattiness. IMO, only Don Draper has been a more dynamic character.
Which times were you thinking of i can't remember any? Maybe i just don't like her smugness. More dynamic than Peggy though?
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I couldn't tell if the latest episode was really bad or not.
Was it?
I think it was.
But maybe it wasn't?
Allow me to clarify. Voiceover=terrible, Don=weirdly floppy-looking whenever they tell him to be anything other than stern, Peggy/Joan awesomeness=awesome.
I kind of liked the voice over since apparently Don is starting to get a little introspective with his family and alcoholism it seemed like the right time to introduce it, i guess as long as they keep it to diary entries maybe. I thought it was pretty inventive to just start a voice over not only mid series but mid season of a show too.
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Did anyone feel like they missed an episode between last week and last night. You think Don is slow-playing the Dr., Joan's husband is just going to Basic, and then boom this week starts off with rather significant developments over and settled. Was it just my reptilian brain or did the first act of last night's episode have a Sapphic theme?
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Did anyone feel like they missed an episode between last week and last night. You think Don is slow-playing the Dr., Joan's husband is just going to Basic, and then boom this week starts off with rather significant developments over and settled. Was it just my reptilian brain or did the first act of last night's episode have a Sapphic theme?
Also didn't they already do an episode where one of the kids was stuck at the office?
I didn't really get how some dudes notebook manifesto was going to get Peggy fired either.
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Poor Mrs. Blankenship.
Hardly saw that one coming... This is one of the funniest and most serious seasons yet.
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Just caught up. So, is Mad Men a broad comedy in the tradition of Night Court now? I can't figure it out.
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Just caught up. So, is Mad Men a broad comedy in the tradition of Night Court now? I can't figure it out.
It's the funniest show on TV right now, if that's what you mean.
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Just caught up. So, is Mad Men a broad comedy in the tradition of Night Court now? I can't figure it out.
It's the funniest show on TV right now, if that's what you mean.
Not this week it wasn't.
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When Don and Lane took Lane's dad out, I was hoping it'd be like the legendary Don/Lane night out from earlier this season.
It wasn't.
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"You're not a real doctor."
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this is kind of off-topic, but this is how I feel about The Walking Dead:
(http://i56.tinypic.com/51qxzd.jpg)
and this is what my reaction will be during parts of the premiere, I am sure:
(http://i55.tinypic.com/250ox8w.jpg)
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I too am absolutely giddy about Walking Dead. Been waiting nigh on a year for this program, and all I here is chatter about Boardwalk Empire from my friends. Nay, nay I say it is Walking Dead what is the best new show of the season.
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"Lane, meet cane." - Shit Lane's Dad should have said.
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"Lane, meet cane." - Shit Lane's Dad should have said.
(http://i56.tinypic.com/t5t280.jpg)
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"Lane, meet cane." - Shit Lane's Dad should have said.
(http://i56.tinypic.com/t5t280.jpg)
That is a very realistic fall there. Acting!
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"Lane, meet cane." - Shit Lane's Dad should have said.
(http://i56.tinypic.com/t5t280.jpg)
That is a very realistic fall there. Acting!
Can't tell if you were being sarcastic or not.
Personally, that moment really surprised me and - never having been hit in the face with a mahogany cane by my racist/snobby/abusive/elderly/British father - didn't think it was unrealistic at all.
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ic.com/t5t280.jpg[/img]
That is a very realistic fall there. Acting!
Can't tell if you were being sarcastic or not.
Personally, that moment really surprised me and - never having been hit in the face with a mahogany cane by my racist/snobby/abusive/elderly/British father - didn't think it was unrealistic at all.
[/quote]
No, I meant it! I loved how it happened in stages. It's as if you see pain stabbing through him in waves.
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I call bullshit yet again. Are you telling me his reflexes were so slow he couldn't react to the old man's wind up? Anyone seeing the cane begin to move would have instinctively backed up.
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You have to factor in that he's British. The Brits, as a people, are notoriously prone to cane beatings, especially in this era. This particular episode would have taken place just over a year after Ringo famously lost that cane fight against Australian serial killer Eric Edgar Cooke and had to be replaced on the Beatles' tour of Australia by Jimmie Nicol.
Also, I think Jared Harris was paying tribute to his old man taking that surprise pistol whipping as English Bob in Unforgiven.
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They should really release Roger Sterling's book as a promotional tie-in to the series, like with Laura Palmer's diary.
http://www.avclub.com/articles/fake-mad-men-book-to-become-actual-mad-men-book,46896/ (http://www.avclub.com/articles/fake-mad-men-book-to-become-actual-mad-men-book,46896/)