FOT Forum
FOT Community => Links => Topic started by: Trembling Eagle on December 04, 2008, 07:36:57 PM
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http://gothamist.com/2008/12/04/meet_the_real_world_brooklynites.php
(http://gothamist.com/attachments/NYC_Billy/2008_12_RWKaDev.jpg)
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c'mon guys guess which without reading the article
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The one on the left with the black eye.
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It's the dude.
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It's the dude.
still a dude if they got the snip snip?
because this one apparently went all the way according to mtv bio thing
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c'mon guys guess which without reading the article
It's the dog, right?
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Well I guessed wrong. Not spoiling it for all the others tho.
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c'mon guys guess which without reading the article
It's the dog, right?
Beat me to it, DFK.
Left
EDIT: Still can't tell from the article if I was right.
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c'mon guys guess which without reading the article
It's the dog, right?
Beat me to it, DFK.
Left
EDIT: Still can't tell from the article if I was right.
which one did u guess?
EDIT: oops
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I have concluded that Trembling Eagle is one classy motherfucker.
;)
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We're supposed to guess the one on our right, so I'm guessing the one on our left. I.e., I think it's the white chick.
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We're supposed to guess the one on our right, so I'm guessing the one on our left. I.e., I think it's the white chick.
if women are having a hard time telling what does that mean for us dudes?
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Surely it's more of an issue for you than it is for us. Besides, if she's transgendered, she's a she, so why should you care?
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Surely it's more of an issue for you than it is for us. Besides, if she's transgendered, she's a she, so why should you care?
whoa, I got to take time to unpack that sentence. I disagree with you in a variety of ways here.
At the very least lets agree it's somewhat notable and not just 'cause I said so.
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Let me clarify: by "you," I meant men; by "us," women. Also, my second sentence was (knowingly) disingenuous. I am well aware that people have a hard time accepting transgenders as straightforwardly partaking in the sexes they have assumed later in life than most of us, although in the world in which I would prefer to be living, that would not be the case. This being so, many men apparently get the heebie-jeebies at the idea of fucking a woman and then finding out she's transgender. And I think this is dumb.
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I thought the fear is more like you're about to be fucking and then you're like "what the fuck is happening here?!" because my understanding is a transgendered crotch is still not going to look or feel "normal" unless it was the kind of thing where someone was already like 95% one or the other.
Interest in ID-ing the transgendered cast member is fair enough, it's this insistence on keeping up with the cast of the Real World in general that disturbs me.
In conclusion, I think it's the white chick because she looks kinda like a dude, unlike the black chick, who kinda looks like a dude in drag.
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I thought the fear is more like you're about to be fucking and then you're like "what the fuck is happening here?!" because my understanding is a transgendered crotch is still not going to look or feel "normal" unless it was the kind of thing where someone was already like 95% one or the other.
Really? In my experience, the fear stems from the fact that many (dumb and homophobic) men think that fucking a woman who used to be a man makes them gay.
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Yeah. What intolerant assholes.
*Sorry, Sarah. I guess I mean: Your opinion isn't really....my cup of tea?
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I thought the fear is more like you're about to be fucking and then you're like "what the fuck is happening here?!" because my understanding is a transgendered crotch is still not going to look or feel "normal" unless it was the kind of thing where someone was already like 95% one or the other.
Really? In my experience, the fear stems from the fact that many (dumb and homophobic) men think that fucking a woman who used to be a man makes them gay.
Some dudes think masturbation makes them gay. The dumbness and homophobicity knows no bounds for some dudes.
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I admired the dryness of your riposte, wavy. You homophobe, you.
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I agree with you Sarah.
but i think it's more indicative of a kind of sexism in most guys than it is a homophobia. It's judging a woman based on whether or not you would have sex with her.
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But it's more than just sexism. First, there's the question of judging women according to whether one wants to fuck then, and, second, there's the notion that there is something wrong/off/unsavory/weird/gay/take your choice with a woman if she's transgender.
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you're right.
I just reread what I posted I didn't articulate what I was thinking right.
I should've said it was that in addition to the obvious homophobia that most men have towards trans people, that there's a whole macho sexist thing in there too.
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In that case, yup, we agree. Ain't it a wonderful world?
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totally
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But it's more than just sexism. First, there's the question of judging women according to whether one wants to fuck then, and, second, there's the notion that there is something wrong/off/unsavory/weird/gay/take your choice with a woman if she's transgender.
wow, so you are totally ready to accept every TS/TV into the female sisterhood no questions asked? Like they are just as much a woman as you end of story? I don't want to be biased here but that seems like a leap. At the very least we are talking about people who have been socialized differently than every other female. I mean where do you draw the line will you accept cross dressers into the sisterhood?
I don't want to belittle their plight but there is some difference there I think between their struggle and that of biological females.
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I don't really cotton to the concept of sisterhood. I know women who were taught by their mothers to flirt, who treat their sons like kings and their daughters like suspects, who think of me as some kind of alien. Sisterhood doesn't play much of a role in my relationships with them. Sure, if a lady who only became such physically in her twenties started likening her childhood experiences to mine, I'd scoff (and probably suggest hers were probably tougher), but I wouldn't have any trouble accepting her as a woman now. Hell, I don't have trouble accepting committed transvestites as women. Silly women, in my view, since they seek out the very trappings of femaledom that I reject, such as heels, makeup, and push-up bras, but women nonetheless.
In sum, sisterhood, schmisterhood.
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I don't really cotton to the concept of sisterhood. I know women who were taught by their mothers to flirt, who treat their sons like kings and their daughters like suspects, who think of me as some kind of alien. Sisterhood doesn't play much of a role in my relationships with them. Sure, if a lady who only became such physically in her twenties started likening her childhood experiences to mine, I'd scoff (and probably suggest hers were probably tougher), but I wouldn't have any trouble accepting her as a woman now. Hell, I don't have trouble accepting committed transvestites as women. Silly women, in my view, since they seek out the very trappings of femaledom that I reject, such as heels, makeup, and push-up bras, but women nonetheless.
In sum, sisterhood, schmisterhood.
You are ready to give them as much say in women's political issues?
I guess you are coming from the angle that the differences between the sexes is more socialization than anything?
That's a noble progressive place to come from but I don't think that's the consensus view even among the very liberal.
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Gee, and I always strive so hard to keep in line with mainstream liberal positions on these matters.
Why shouldn't they have as much say? What difference would it make? What proportion of the female population is transgender? A fairly tiny one, I'm guessing, so it's not as though there'd be a tyranny of the tranny. Indeed, care should be taken that their concerns aren't lost in the shuffle.
As to the difference between the sexes, I think a great deal of it is environmental; the rest is hormonal, and transgenders are chockablock full of those.
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Gee, and I always strive so hard to keep in line with mainstream liberal positions on these matters.
Why shouldn't they have as much say? What difference would it make? What proportion of the female population is transgender? A fairly tiny one, I'm guessing, so it's not as though there'd be a tyranny of the tranny. Indeed, care should be taken that their concerns aren't lost in the shuffle.
As to the difference between the sexes, I think a great deal of it is environmental; the rest is hormonal, and transgenders are chockablock full of those.
OK, are we agreeing that women have distinct social-political interests in our society and in the greater world? Reproductive rights, economic parity etc..
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That this American life with the dude that was a chick who took enough testosterone to supply the UCLA football team was pretty interesting.
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tyranny of the tranny
Nice work, Sarah.
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tyranny of the tranny
Nice work, Sarah.
can I get a 'lil something for this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6iktQ2y1Rs
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Transgenders are probably the most underrepresented group in our society. We all need to work through our respective ignorances and/or prejudices, but I would say it's simplistic to attribute a hypothetical man's discomfort with sleeping with a transgendered woman being based solely on his own sexism, just even considering how many issues and anxieties people have with "normal" sexual partnerings. I mean, if you run away screaming then that's horrible, but on the other hand some guys don't like redheads and they don't go for chicks that used to have penises, it's a free country.
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J.D., 22 – Miami Beach, FL
. . . and became one of the youngest dolphin trainers at Miami Seaquarium at the tender age of 19. He continues to live wholeheartedly by the motto “work hard, to play hard.”
I'd like to hear what someone who worked at this house of horrors has to say. The Miami Seaquarium has to be one of the most depressing places in our great nation; where else can you see a 22' long orca in a decrepit 28' wide x 68' long x 20' deep tank dating from 1978?
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OK, are we agreeing that women have distinct social-political interests in our society and in the greater world? Reproductive rights, economic parity etc..
Sure.
I would say it's simplistic to attribute a hypothetical man's discomfort with sleeping with a transgendered woman being based solely on his own sexism.
Of course it is. And no one said that. Homophobia, sexism, and human beings' innate hatred and fear of what's different account for it.
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I would say it's simplistic to attribute a hypothetical man's discomfort with sleeping with a transgendered woman being based solely on his own sexism.
Of course it is. And no one said that. Homophobia, sexism, and human beings' innate hatred and fear of what's different account for it.
If there's a relationship between a man and a transgendered woman, that's awesome, and good for them if they are happy together.
But if it makes me homophobic, sexist and hateful by your standards to want to be in a relationship with someone who was born a woman, then I guess I'm fine with those labels.
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I think any guy who doesn't go out of his way to have sex with as many she-males as possible is a total bigot and a jerk.
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Now, now, Jasong. Don't be silly.
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I'm no Freud, but aren't young boys kinda terrified by regular, non-former-penis vaginas when they first encounter them, and then must work through their mix of terror and desire to achieve a kind of harmonious adult balance where they accept female genitalia as natural and not a scary monster that wants to eat their penis? I guess that would go under the innate fear and hatred column.
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But if it makes me homophobic, sexist and hateful by your standards to want to be in a relationship with someone who was born a woman, then I guess I'm fine with those labels.
even though I disagree with Sarah about this subject, I can tell you this is not what she's saying.
I'm more on your side but I did a little thought experiment with your statement: I substituted the gender for race/ethnicity and played it out:
if it makes me hateful by your standards to want to be in a relationship with someone who was born (white, black, christian, jewish, any word u want here) then I guess I'm fine with those labels.
Which, mind u, is still a valid statement to make but wouldn't those words sound odd as hell coming out of anyones mouth? "Well I wanted to date her, but come to find out she was born Hindu!"
I think on the far end of progressive thought race and gender are both thought of as mostly social constructs. Differences that are real because we make them real. For instance biologically the size and strength difference between male and female humans should only be like 3-4% but out in the world we see those differences exaggerated by social factors.
I can see the bias but like you the status-quo is more comfortable for me, if the concept of gender is mostly in our heads
I'm happy with it and anything that threatens to tear down or breech that wall makes he hella uneasy, queasy even. Perhaps (most likely) further into the future more advanced humans will have a completely different take on gender.
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I want to clarify what i was saying before had nothing to do with saying "if you don't want to have sex with a trans person you are a homophobe"
what I, and i think Sarah too, was trying to say was alot of man are prejudiced against trans women because, as evidenced by where this thread has gone, they immediately jump to "what if i had to have sex with her, she used to be a guy thats gross" rather than treating them like a real person. I think that attitude is a sexist and homophobic one.
I didn't really want to bring this up, but the reason i feel strongly about this is that one of my good friends in a transgender woman and I've witnessed tons of guys who meet her, thinks she's cool and want to be friends with her until they find out shes trans and then they get all weird. I know it's because they all had some kind of attraction to her, even if its just thinking "she's pretty cute" or something and now feel guilty or scared or whatever because they think it makes them gay.
the likelihood that they would ever get into a sexual situation with her is one in a million but they are still assholes about it.
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I'm both too weary and too impatient to say much more in this thread, so I'm very grateful that I have the two of you, Trembling Eagle and Colin, to make these points for me. You're doing a much better job than I could manage, and I thank you very much. And I'm not being facetious.
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you're welcome Sarah.
I also have said all I can say really, take it or leave it. I'm not trying to get into an argument with anyone.
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you're welcome Sarah.
I also have said all I can say really, take it or leave it. I'm not trying to get into an argument with anyone.
take your ball and go home huh?
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April 12, 2005: "I Hate Most Things" (2:58)
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you're welcome Sarah.
I also have said all I can say really, take it or leave it. I'm not trying to get into an argument with anyone.
take your ball and go home huh?
yup
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(it's the white one)
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(it's the white one)
Great, there goes my erection.
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(it's the white one)
Great, there goes my erection.
Take heart. The internet will save it.
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you're welcome Sarah.
I also have said all I can say really, take it or leave it. I'm not trying to get into an argument with anyone.
take your ball and go home huh?
I think that's a wholly inappropriate statement given the topic at hand.
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Transvestitism, transsexualism: that's all gravy.
But what I really love is when a guy knows that he should have been born a female (i.e. Transsexual); so he goes through hormone replacement therapy, which takes over a year, then has sex reassignment surgery.
So now (s)he identifies as a female and looks like a female and has all of the parts that a female has, but then, after living as a female for months, (s)he realizes that (s)he has made a huge mistake.
So (s)he goes through hormone replacement therapy again and has sex reassignment surgery again and becomes a male again. Then he is just really confused and goes to therapy.
I saw a special about this on Discovery Health channel.
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It'd be awesome if they allowed you to convert to a hermaphrodite. Then you could just switch back and forth as needed.
Transvestitism, transsexualism: that's all gravy.
But what I really love is when a guy knows that he should have been born a female (i.e. Transsexual); so he goes through hormone replacement therapy, which takes over a year, then has sex reassignment surgery.
So now (s)he identifies as a female and looks like a female and has all of the parts that a female has, but then, after living as a female for months, (s)he realizes that (s)he has made a huge mistake.
So (s)he goes through hormone replacement therapy again and has sex reassignment surgery again and becomes a male again. Then he is just really confused and goes to therapy.
I saw a special about this on Discovery Health channel.
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I'm sure that would be a huge success, judging from this thread.
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Transgenders are probably the most underrepresented group in our society.
im dipping my toe into this mess, but i will say only this: i dont believe in the term transgender- you're either a guy or a girl (if that even matters) and you live your life thusly. when a man becomes a women or vice versa, you're not transgender, you're a man or a woman. you fought it, you bought it, stand by it.
also, guessing who the tranny is: juvenile and inappropriate. you know where FOTchan is.
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Transgenders are probably the most underrepresented group in our society.
im dipping my toe into this mess, but i will say only this: i dont believe in the term transgender- you're either a guy or a girl (if that even matters) and you live your life thusly. when a man becomes a women or vice versa, you're not transgender, you're a man or a woman. you fought it, you bought it, stand by it.
also, guessing who the tranny is: juvenile and inappropriate. you know where FOTchan is.
It should be obvious that I don't know what I'm talking about, but I think maybe you're talking about transsexuals(?).
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It should be obvious that I don't know what I'm talking about, but I think maybe you're talking about transsexuals(?).
looks like we're both in the same boat then. my point is, transwhatever=man or woman. it makes no difference to me, correct me if im wrong, and let's have a drink.
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You Queer Theoriodummies need to read you some Judith Butler.
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It should be obvious that I don't know what I'm talking about, but I think maybe you're talking about transsexuals(?).
looks like we're both in the same boat then. my point is, transwhatever=man or woman. it makes no difference to me, correct me if im wrong, and let's have a drink.
I guess I have to ask what is your definition of "man" or "woman" or "maleness" "femaleness" is. Just so we ar3e talking about the same things.
If it's the whole XX/XY thing it doesn't take much thinking or schooling to realise not every single human being is one or another, just nature itself you know there will be some oddities or unclassifiable cases
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_determination_and_differentiation_(human)s.
But I agr4e with you to a degree most humans are mostly male or female
except for the few who aren't.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersexuality
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You Queer Theoriodummies need to read you some Judith Butler.
Noted!
If nothing else, I am aware that the heteronormative either/or, male/female binary is highly problematic.
Look, the above sentence proves I may not know what I'm talking about, but I did go to graduate school.
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TE makes a great point about intersexed people. Half of the people reading this will just roll their eyes and say to themselves, "why are they complicating this further," it's a category of people who render our rigid categories of gender pretty damn flimsy. They were born that way, and while we might be inclined to think nature might have committed a major fuckup, I don't know that that's really for us to say. Medical technology can change things for people in this group today, but it wasn't always so, and it still isn't always going to be affordable for many intersexed people. Correct me if I'm wrong, anyone.
Why not try to accept people for what they are, however they are, since in this society you're not going to be expected to have sex with ANYONE you don't want to? Unless some crime is committed, and that's not really at issue here.
Oh, and I can't stand queer theory. I'm open to hearing about Judith Butler if someone could translate that shit into English.
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Oh, and I can't stand queer theory.
Homophobe.
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Can we see the Harvey Milk biopic instead of reading Judith Butler?
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Oh, and I can't stand queer theory.
Homophobe.
Haha, well said, Grote. (I hope not.)
I thought queer theory was supposed to help make the world a better place, but it turns out to be largely impervious to most minds. (I did go to graduate school, but it was the stoopid kind of grad school -- business school.)
I like Steve's suggestion of watching the Harvey Milk movie. I'm pretty sure I could handle that.
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It all seems to be pretty basic to me, once one learns a little bit of jargon -- basically gender is a social construction, and a two-gendered society suits entrenched power interests, and everything goes forth from there, mostly Derrida-type stuff about the various assumptions and agendas embedded in language. But it's funny, people really do seem to hate Judith Butler for whatever reason -- lots of playwrights and academics (two of the only professions on earth with any reason to read her) complain about how impenetrable she is.
I am looking forward to Milk. I hear it's neck-and-neck with The Spirit in terms of Oscar buzz!
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jeepers