Author Topic: David Simon: "Fiction makes everyone comfortable and talkative"  (Read 3657 times)

TL

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Is he pompous?  Yes.
Is he self-aggrandizing?  Yeah, it seems.
Is saying that he expects too much from the very media he's criticizing too cynical?  I don't think so.
But still, I appreciate what he's actually saying...
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dvdv

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Re: David Simon: "Fiction makes everyone comfortable and talkative"
« Reply #1 on: March 18, 2008, 12:40:36 AM »
As someone who found the newspaper storyline really fascinating, I kinda felt like the article wasn't really for me but a good read nonetheless.  It's interesting that David Chase gave somewhat adversarial interviews too after Sopranos ended.

bachwards

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Re: David Simon: "Fiction makes everyone comfortable and talkative"
« Reply #2 on: March 18, 2008, 11:26:11 AM »
I heard a story on NPR about the media's coverage of the end of the show and Simon was talking about how so few critics understood the newsroom storyline.  I had to hold back laughter when the host came on and said "One of the few in the media who did grasp Simon's critique was Slate's Jeffrey Goldberg."

B_Buster

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Re: David Simon: "Fiction makes everyone comfortable and talkative"
« Reply #3 on: March 18, 2008, 01:17:39 PM »
This guy's beginning to get on my nerves. The idea that his story didn't strike home with some viewers because it lacked depth never even occurs to him. We're all a bunch of dunces because we didn't get it. If Simon spent half as much time investing his characters with more depth than you'd expect from a newspaper article, he wouldn't have to spend so much time explaining what we missed. This was probably my biggest problem with the show. He sets all of these characters in motion behaving badly without giving us any background as to their motivations aside from the obvious quests for wealth and power. Why is McNulty such a jerk? He doesn't fit in at home or on the job. How did he get this way? He was described as a type in the FBI profile of the imaginary serial killer, but it never went any deeper than that. I didn't feel like I knew what motivated him any more in the last episode than I did in the first episode of the series. The same goes with most of the other characters as well. They felt more like types to me than fully-developed characters, types used to make the points in Simon's agenda.   

Also, I'm not so sure I agree with his idea that better newspapers make a better society. That seems a little too pat to me. It might help to shine a light on the corruption in the various institutions he's interested in, but would it end corruption entirely? I dont' think so. I think you would have to go a little deeper to get at that and even then you might come up empty-handed.
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Chris L

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Re: David Simon: "Fiction makes everyone comfortable and talkative"
« Reply #4 on: March 18, 2008, 01:43:49 PM »
Seriously, if you didn't get all you needed to know of what motivated McNulty it's your problem, not the show's.  The FBI profile was not meant to reveal anything about his motivation, it was a humorous moment that contained observations and conclusions the viewers had already made about his character over five seasons. 

Did I wish some characters like Templeton were more well-rounded?  Yes.  But what about Valcheck? Or Narese? Or Colliccio?  Which of these and other characters would have improved this 60-hour show had they been as developed as Bubbles or Omar?  This was not an individual character study of McNulty or anyone else; the main character was always Baltimore. 

todd

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Re: David Simon: "Fiction makes everyone comfortable and talkative"
« Reply #5 on: March 18, 2008, 02:23:21 PM »
I agree with a lot of what B-Buster is saying. It's annoying that David Simon smirks and says "YOU ALL MISSED THE POINT." If you tell a story and a ton of people "miss the point," I'd say you didn't tell it very well.

I just find his incessant exposition to be really distasteful. His "art" should be able to stand on it's own legs if it's worth a damn.

Wes

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Re: David Simon: "Fiction makes everyone comfortable and talkative"
« Reply #6 on: March 18, 2008, 03:10:42 PM »
To use McNulty as an example, I think there were also plenty of beats during the run of the show that let viewers know how he ended up the way he did, chiefly the introduction of Colvin. The cyclical theme showed how a guy like Colvin rubbed off on McNulty, who in turn rubbed off on Kima, who was well on her way to following down McNulty's path during the middle of the show before finally pulling back and seeing the self-destruction ahead of her. Daniels' repeated attempts to reach back and stop Carver from making his own set of similar mistakes was another approach to the idea.

In the end, McNulty isn't that far off from a Daniel Plainview in terms of his drive. They often made a point of bringing up McNulty's "need to be the smartest cop in the room." That's what pushed him into repeatedly burning down everything around him, from those season one scenes putting the screws to Rawls even after Landsman went to bat for him and got him another shot in Homicide, to sitting there figuring out the tide charts to turn 22 county murders into 22 city murders, to that scene this season where he goes in trying to goad Phelan into signing off on a tap they don't need and don't actually want, just because he thinks he can do it.

That need to prove themselves smartest is what drew McNulty and Lester together, and is the motivation that separated McNulty from Colvin, who burned his bridges for what seemed like an honest desire to change things. And what separated McNulty and Freamon was that Lester knew - and warned McNulty and Kima early on - of the need to balance the consuming work drive with finding something outside the job to invest in when the job inevitably disappoints. McNulty couldn't do it, and it seems to me that the growing inability to tell anymore when he was doing something because it was right and when he was doing it because he wanted to prove that he was right turned into personal loathing, which just further fueled that self-destructive impulse.

I dunno, that's what I got out of it!

Quote
Also, I'm not so sure I agree with his idea that better newspapers make a better society. That seems a little too pat to me. It might help to shine a light on the corruption in the various institutions he's interested in, but would it end corruption entirely? I don't' think so. I think you would have to go a little deeper to get at that and even then you might come up empty-handed.

Nah, I don't think better newspapers would end corruption entirely, either. But I think the media came last in terms of what the show "took on!" because of the show's approach to "pulling back" in looking at its issues. Start with an issue (drugs) that people point to as a key and are more willing to address, begin to lay out the underlying, further-reaching issues that increase the scope of what's going on, then finally ask the question why we don't talk about those underlying problems more.

His stance seems to be that not fully addressing the depth of the underlying problems is what leads to ineffectual attempts at solving them, and that the newspaper is meant to be a key resource that should help continually explore all these issues and set the table for the the dialogue and debate needed to figure out what actually needs to be done.

He's definitely got his own hang-ups and might not be the first choice among people whose work I really admire with whom I'd want to go grab a beer*, but I think you'd inevitably get the same kind of approach out of someone similarly driven who came from TV news and had complaints about the damage done by eroding the barriers between news and entertainment divisions and that sort of thing.


*My first choice would be Hulk Hogan, of course.
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B_Buster

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Re: David Simon: "Fiction makes everyone comfortable and talkative"
« Reply #7 on: March 18, 2008, 06:05:14 PM »
To clarify, I didn't think you got much psychological or historical background with the main characters on the show (obviously, in a story this big you're going to have walk-on characters like Valchek, Narese, and Collichio who don't warrant the same attention). I didn't say the FBI profile was meant to show McNulty's motivations, Chris L. It amusingly summed up his character in a few broad strokes. And like most of the main characters on the show, you got a few broad strokes of them in action on the corners or in the corridors of power, but very little in the way of personal history or psychological motivation (we didn't even meet Lester's wife until the last episode! Did Marlo and Snoop have family lives or did they perpetually cruise the streets in their SUVs?). Of course, these were David Simon's choices. As for the main character being Baltimore, I would modify that slightly to David Simon's Baltimore (just as Manhattan was really Woody Allen's Manhattan). How could it be otherwise when it comes from one man's viewpoint? And if capturing the spirit of Baltimore in all of its glorious dysfunction was the task he set for himself, he may well have succeeded (I'm not familiar enough with Baltimore's history to judge). As a drama, I would have preferred main characters with a little more weight to them (insert Prop Joe joke here), not to mention a few more prominent women characters. Let's face it, guys, The Wire was a sausage party.

 
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masterofsparks

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Re: David Simon: "Fiction makes everyone comfortable and talkative"
« Reply #8 on: March 18, 2008, 06:13:16 PM »
(we didn't even meet Lester's wife until the last episode! 

Just to clarify, she's not his wife, and she features fairly prominently in the show's first season (she's the stripper who worked at Orlando's bar and was involved with D'Angelo before hooking up with Lester at the end of the first season).

not to mention a few more prominent women characters. Let's face it, guys, The Wire was a sausage party.

Agreed. The paucity of female characters is definitely a strike against the show, and you're not the first to mention it.
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B_Buster

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Re: David Simon: "Fiction makes everyone comfortable and talkative"
« Reply #9 on: March 18, 2008, 06:24:55 PM »

Just to clarify, she's not his wife, and she features fairly prominently in the show's first season (she's the stripper who worked at Orlando's bar and was involved with D'Angelo before hooking up with Lester at the end of the first season).


To quote a famous Starbuck's employee: "Really?!" I thought she looked older than the stripper. Then again, she had been absent from the show for quite a while. Out of sight, out of mind, I guess.
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buffcoat

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Re: David Simon: "Fiction makes everyone comfortable and talkative"
« Reply #10 on: March 18, 2008, 07:59:18 PM »
Yeah, I keep wanting to respond, but then I see that chicken and I laugh and laugh.  Damn you, b_buster, and damn Werner Herzog for his chicken-related hilarity.

Now I really do have to see that movie.  Will it be on HBO anytime soon now that the Wire is gone?
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erika

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Re: David Simon: "Fiction makes everyone comfortable and talkative"
« Reply #11 on: March 19, 2008, 09:24:24 AM »
It's interesting, but the more I hear people talk/post about The Wire and especially the 5th season I realize there's a discrepancy of opinion between the people who watched all 5 seasons back-to-back, and those who followed it over the past few years with big spans of time between seasons.

Maybe it's just when you hold Season 5 up to the rest of the seasons so closely, watching it directly after watching season 4, it just doesn't seem to "fit in" with the rest of the seasons.



from the land of pleasant living

TL

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Re: David Simon: "Fiction makes everyone comfortable and talkative"
« Reply #12 on: March 19, 2008, 06:13:19 PM »
At first that was definitely true for me, Erika.  AND I just recently re-watched all of season five in pretty close succession, and it worked a lot better for me, actually.  Not that I'd recommend anyone adding another 10.5 hours of television to his or her life for a RE-watch, but if you're so inclined, I did enjoy it much more the second time around.
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masterofsparks

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Re: David Simon: "Fiction makes everyone comfortable and talkative"
« Reply #13 on: March 19, 2008, 07:04:15 PM »
At first that was definitely true for me, Erika.  AND I just recently re-watched all of season five in pretty close succession, and it worked a lot better for me, actually.  Not that I'd recommend anyone adding another 10.5 hours of television to his or her life for a RE-watch, but if you're so inclined, I did enjoy it much more the second time around.

That's good to know. I was kind of wondering what it would be like to rewatch it in "DVD fashion" (in other words, at my own pace, a few episodes at a time) rather than 1 episode at a time, which can be kind of a drag - especially having to wait a week after the episode ending with Omar jumping off a balcony and disappearing to find out what happened.
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wwwes

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Re: David Simon: "Fiction makes everyone comfortable and talkative"
« Reply #14 on: March 20, 2008, 09:17:51 AM »
I think the anticipation is what's the killer. The fifth season was the conclusion, and it felt like a letdown. I do look forward to one day going back through it and looking at it as the overall story that it was intended to be.

I bet Simon hid his newsroom secret theme as much as he possibly could. Last thing he'd want is for his chance to point one last finger in the face of his peers to get ruined by an observant critic. (though some DID get it, so it wasn't THAT badly done).

B_Buster, I was very surprised to see that it was not Kima who turned into McNulty. Either they decided to change that at the last minute or they deliberately made Kima come to a pivotal choice, one that made her decide she couldn't go down that road. Seeing Sydnor acting like McNulty felt weird and uncharacteristic. Maybe it was a poor choice on the part of the actor. Had he played his role in the investigation with more gusto, it might have worked.