The City of St. Louis, MO

[putkcbackinks]

The guy who called this week and said that St. Louis is a racist town is a certifiable jackass. I guarantee he was from, and speaking about, the suburbs and not the City of St. Louis. Chicago can have him. That is all.

[todd]

Sorry buddy, born and raised in south city. I grew up just south of Tower Grove on Oleatha. Missouri is a beautiful state, but it's also one of the most segregated, racist places I've been. I was comforted to see all the Obama signs last month when I was visiting my parents.

And although I moved to Chicago, I still registered to vote absentee in Missouri, because they need the Obama help more than Illinois does. Take that, racist state!

[putkcbackinks]

I stand corrected. St. Louis has its problems for sure, but leave your bubble in Chicago and you'll find much of the same kind of stuff going on. Also, Illinois kind of goes Democrat more in an Iowa or Wisconsin kind of way than a Washington or New York kind of way. Why do you have to go on national radio and perpetuate the bad perceptions that make sure it never gets any better?

Either way I would like to thank you for the absentee vote. I will admit that Missouri is a racist state. And I spent part of my childhood on McDonald. Arsenal along the park there is lined with Obama signs to an almost comical degree.

[todd]

I stand corrected. St. Louis has its problems for sure, but leave your bubble in Chicago and you'll find much of the same kind of stuff going on. Also, Illinois kind of goes Democrat more in an Iowa or Wisconsin kind of way than a Washington or New York kind of way. Why do you have to go on national radio and perpetuate the bad perceptions that make sure it never gets any better?

Either way I would like to thank you for the absentee vote. I will admit that Missouri is a racist state. And I spent part of my childhood on McDonald. Arsenal along the park there is lined with Obama signs to an almost comical degree.

St. Louis is a city almost defined by it's racism, actually: I don't need to tell you what the city/county divide has done to the tax base of St. Louis. And that schism was due to white flight in the 50s and 60s. Most of the problems with that city were caused by that shit.

The city is on the rebound (finally) and I don't think my call to a radio station is going to jeopardize that.

[putkcbackinks]

St. Louis is a city defined by its citizens' underdog attitude these days. True that many historic events that shaped segregation in the whole country took place here (the picture of Obama speaking to 100,000 people with the courthouse where the Dred Scott case was heard gave me chills, by the way), but it is moving toward being one of the more integrated cities among its peers. And if you want to debate urban geography and history, I could go all night. The fact is the city's split from the county happened in the 1870s and had nothing to do with racism (and everything to do with rich people not wanting to go out to what was then the hick-town of Clayton to conduct business or visit the courts). Actually, it didn't have as much of an affect on the city's competitiveness as people like to say. Kansas City, Chicago and all the cities that could annex new development still ended up losing to their suburbs in big ways.

And I'd say a call to a show like this can jeopardize the city's future. The rebound going on so far is mainly due to people who would be in the metro area anyway choosing to live within the city borders. We're still a weak market city and region and that won't change if people like the audience of the Best Show don't see it as a viable place to live. Richard Florida's "Creative Class" and all that shit.

If I seem to be taking this too seriously its because I am. It is quite lit'rully my job to try to make the city a better place.

[Fido]

When you mention white flight and city-county divide, I think of lots of other cities also, Todd. Washington, DC and Baltimore, to name just two that I'm more familiar with than St. Louis. Those movements were fueled in large part by racism, but of course it had a lot to do with schools, taxes, the suburban dream, upward mobility, homeownership, not all of which were entirely driven by racism. Those cities still really show the effects of white flight.

Also, this election campaign has been such an opportune time to see racism hard at work in places you wouldn't necessarily expect to see it burgeoning forth.

I like St. Louis for all its faults, but feel like its pains have had a lot to do with economics, not just old-fashioned racism. But I defer to you guys, who know it a lot better than I. It's just so far from unique in the respects you're describing.

[putkcbackinks]

I realize that I am probably just being an annoying wiener at this point, but check this out:

US Metro Areas Ranked by White/Black Dissimilarity Index
Rank    Metro Area    Black Population    White Population    Total Population    Dissimilarity Index
1.    Gary, IN    122,686    428,791    631,362    87.9
2.    Detroit, MI    1,012,262    3,096,900    4,441,551    86.7
3.    Milwaukee-Waukesha, WI    232,247    1,116,150    1,500,741    84.4
4.    New York, NY    2,118,957    3,684,669    9,314,235    84.3
5.    Chicago, IL    1,541,641    4,798,533    8,272,768    83.6
6.    Newark, NJ    440,597    1,196,664    2,032,989    83.4
7.    Flint, MI    88,356    323,136    436,141    81.2
8.    Buffalo-Niagara Falls, NY    134,645    965,233    1,170,111    80.4
9.    Cleveland-Lorain-Elyria, OH    412,782    1,697,660    2,250,871    79.7
10.    Saginaw-Bay City-Midland, MI    40,875    332,429    403,070    79.1
11.    Nassau-Suffolk, NY    223,122    2,105,352    2,753,913    79.0
12.    Johnstown, PA    5,492    223,066    232,621    78.8
13.    St. Louis, MO-IL    474,549    2,014,776    2,603,607    78.0
14.    Cincinnati, OH-KY-IN    212,452    1,375,267    1,646,395    78.0
15.    Birmingham, AL    276,044    611,574    921,106    77.4
(from http://www.censusscope.org/us/print_rank_dissimilarity_white_black.html)

Fido is right. Most northern cities have these problems. But the point is, step outside of your bubble and head over to Cabrini Green or somewhere like that and you'll see that St. Louis isn't so bad in the scheme of things. I don't know why it is so much harder to fight this mentality among people from St. Louis than among those from other places.

[todd]

The fact that the actual succession happened in 1876 doesn't really matter, because the bottom didn't drop out of the economy until the 50s and 60s when the affluent white tax base headed for south county and chesterfield.

Funny you should mention Cabrini-Green - I live in Old Town in Chicago, which is just a few blocks from there.

I think you're reading a lot more into my comments than they deserve, but I don't mind having this conversation if you want to. It's educational!

[putkcbackinks]

The fact that the actual succession happened in 1876 doesn't really matter, because the bottom didn't drop out of the economy until the 50s and 60s when the affluent white tax base headed for south county and chesterfield.

 . . . when whites and affluents were heading for the suburbs of literally every metropolitan area in the country, and to a higher degree in Chicago as that dissimilarity index would indicate to boot. I'm not saying St. Louis doesn't have problems, only that they're far from unique and not any worse than the same ones in Chicago.

I don't mind educating you, either. All I ask is that you apologize on the air, move back to St. Louis, and open a business that creates 1,000 high tech jobs.

[<<<<<]

Why do you have to go on national radio and perpetuate the bad perceptions that make sure it never gets any better?

Not to state the obvious ~ okay... to state the obvious, if you're truly interested in healing national perceptions about the divisive bigotry of Missouri, then calling yourself "putkcbackinks" and telling a son of Missouri to stay in his Chicago bubble isn't the most effective way of doing it.

[todd]

The fact that the actual succession happened in 1876 doesn't really matter, because the bottom didn't drop out of the economy until the 50s and 60s when the affluent white tax base headed for south county and chesterfield.

 . . . when whites and affluents were heading for the suburbs of literally every metropolitan area in the country, and to a higher degree in Chicago as that dissimilarity index would indicate to boot. I'm not saying St. Louis doesn't have problems, only that they're far from unique and not any worse than the same ones in Chicago.

I don't mind educating you, either. All I ask is that you apologize on the air, move back to St. Louis, and open a business that creates 1,000 high tech jobs.

You trying to convince me that Chicago is racist doesn't really change the fact that St. Louis is racist. 

It also doesn't make any sense, as "St. Louis is a racist city" wasn't intended to be an ironclad argument that would hold up to scrutiny. Theys just words!

[putkcbackinks]

You trying to convince me that Chicago is racist doesn't really change the fact that St. Louis is racist. 

It also doesn't make any sense, as "St. Louis is a racist city" wasn't intended to be an ironclad argument that would hold up to scrutiny. Theys just words!

I know it doesn't matter anymore and you seem to be a solid dude, but I do want to defend my argument. The comment on the air made it sound like you thought St. Louis was somehow special for being racist. If you really understand that Chicago, Cincinnati, Baltimore, Pittsburgh, etc have the same problem, you might as well have said "St. Louis is a city where people eat food."

It's ridiculous how much energy I've put into this, but you've gotta understand that negative and partially untrue comments about this city that I love coming from someone who is from here are particularly frustrating.

Why do you have to go on national radio and perpetuate the bad perceptions that make sure it never gets any better?

Not to state the obvious ~ okay... to state the obvious, if you're truly interested in healing national perceptions about the divisive bigotry of Missouri, then calling yourself "putkcbackinks" and telling a son of Missouri to stay in his Chicago bubble isn't the most effective way of doing it.

I never said I'd stick up for MO. In fact, I am begging you all to not move to 113/114 of it.

Seriously though, its a friendly joke as Kansas City never was in Kansas and thusly can't be put back there and alluding to a St. Louis-Kansas City rivalry that doesn't really exist, clearly making it hilarious. I assure you it goes over better on my nerdy urban planning forums.

[<<<<<]

Yeah, it probably is just a friendly rivalry.  I'm certainly not some sort of Pro-KC weirdo who's going to get all indignant about it,  but it's hard to tell over the internet when people are just joking sometimes ~ esp when people bandying about such a sensitive issue as racism. 

[Fido]

Yeah, it probably is just a friendly rivalry. 

At least until there's another "I-70" World Series with the Cards and the Royals, right?  That doesn't appear to be a threat in the immediate future, as the Royals have been far from those glory days. But you never know.

I get interested in stats like this "dissimilarity index," which I didn't even know existed until I read the above post. That list reads like a rogues gallery of rust belt/northern cities with real economic problems. And I say so as a New Yorker, dismayed to see my city's region in fourth place on that list. I haven't yet looked into how it's calculated, but it seems like lots of southern and western cities are conspicuous in their absence like:  Atlanta, Houston, Miami, Dallas, Los Angeles, Phoenix, etc.

I think it's time to kill this thread or move it out of Show Discussion, or Tom will be angry.

[<<<<<]

My baby sis was born in St. Louis.  I was too young to remember much from living there though.  Anyway, certainly not going to dog you about caring about your community.  I think the truth when you get down to it is, most places in America are misunderstood to some degree.

Except for Vegas.  Everything they say about Vegas is absolutely true.