POLL: General Motors Bailout

[HaroldBlvd]

Well thank God we've got a new administration coming in that will address the issues of public transportation and the environment.

As for Break's experience with Saturn, I would say that is the result of poor management decisions coming on down from GM.
I think that Saturn truly put out a car that rivals any Japanese import. Unfortunately, the bean counters at GM always win out. According to that Google search, that was 100,000 cars built in 1996.

The right thing for Saturn to have done would have been to replace the bad part. Luckily, I guess they corrected that problem by 1997.
I also think that Saturn could have marketed their cars better to be more competitive with the Japanese. I had to load my car up with all sort of options that were standard in the Japanese counterparts. Options like a sunfoof, ABS/Traction, A/C, stereo am/fm cd.
Despite that, I still went for the Saturn. And in 11 years, I never regretted it.

Should the big 3 be saved? I say yes.

Should they radically change the way their companies are run. Again I say yes.

We can't let Detroit die.

[HaroldBlvd]

The Ion. That's the car that replaced the S car. From what I read on Saturn forums, the Ion never lived up to the legacy of the S car. It was built when Saturn became a GM line instead of a separate car company. That meant Saturn was basically  the same as Buick, Chevy, and Cadillac.

I remember the Saturn Salesman boasting about how Saturn was separate from GM and that they did not share technology.

I believe that Detroit may have been mismanaged over the years but they do have the potential to build a superior car. I look at my experience with Saturn as evidence of this.

[wwwes]

GM going bankrupt doesn't mean that its factories will vanish.  Something actually productive might be done with them. For instance, one of the 8 foreign car makers that build cars in the US, employing around 100,000 people, might buy them.

Any other time and I'd be right there with you. Right now, I think they'd just die.

[erechoveraker]

Good gosh. Where is everyone's national pride? The USA, Detroit, Mo Town. Hello? This stuff should be hard wired into all of you.
Detroit makes great cars, they've made some legendary cars, they should be saved. The US car companies are as much a part of our American life as WFMU and The Best Show.

You know, every year WFMU comes around with it's hand out asking for help. We don't turn away asking why they can't turn a profit?
We help them out. Same thing with the car companies.

This is a horrible analogy and it's too early in the morning for me to shoot all the holes in it that need to be shot into it. Shot with a gun of logic and reason!

If you can stand to see the companies that produced the Mustang, The Thunderbird, The GTO, The Corvette, The Barracuda, The Imperial (The Green Hornet based his Black Beauty on this car), The Charger, yes even the Duster and the Dart, just go out of business, than I think it's a sad day for America.

But we're not, those companies no longer exist. Oh wait, the Bumblebee Camaro and Saleen Mustang turn your fancy - then you're a jerk. The phrase "what have you done for me lately" comes to mind, and as stated elsewhere in this thread, just because those companies go tits up doesn't mean the factories can't be put to good use. Build more Civics and less Denali's, I says.

I agree that the country would take a pretty big hit if all the US automakers went under, but it'd be an awfully good object lesson if they did, and admittedly completely deserved as well - which is why I voted to let em sink. Of course, that's why I ain't no brainy politician either, yeah?

[Bryan]

I really hate cars, to a degree that I think is probably pretty irrational. I have never owned one, hope to never have to own one, and believe that the auto industry is just about the single most destructive force that we've known in the last 50 years. Besides the environmental damage, they've made our towns and cities ugly and unlivable, destroyed public transit infrastructure, and - oh yeah - killed about 30 000 Americans a year.

So no, I don't think the U.S. government should be bailing them out. There's plenty of productive work that our culture could be doing instead of sinking more money into a dying industry whose time has passed.

[erechoveraker]

Also, all this Saturn talk is akin to TE calling Wyclef the, and I quote - "bestest rapper that ever lived, ever"*. Yikes.







































* May not be an actual quote.

[Spoony]

I can't tell which post is sarcastic anymore. The issue isn't "who makes the best cars," it's that the auto industry has become so woven into every fabric of our economy, that if they bankrupt, everything else will start to stumble.

It's unfortunate that this is happening after the shoddy bank bailout, and I think that alot of people at the top of these ladders should be jailed, but this is a little bigger than being pissed because your car doesn't turn over in the cold.

[Keith Whitener]

This seems like blackmail to me. "Think of the jobs! Think of the ramifications! Think of the people!" It's like that GNR song Civil War. I really don't think that Axl Rose cares about genocide, hunger, and poverty, just like the owners of these car companies don't care about people. If they did, they wouldn't have been making such shoddy products for so long. I read a paper in my philosophy of law class by John Hospers, who was the first presidential candidate for the Libertarian party. While I do not agree with his views, I found it interesting when he denounced state sponsored "fake" jobs that exist solely for the sake of providing a person a means of sustaining themselves. Millions of Americans work fake jobs in another sense in that they work in superfluous and frivolous industries. If the economy continues to be bad, which I imagine it will be, we're going to see a lot more sub-par and unnecessary companies go away. Manufacturers of 3rd rate potato chips and I-pod accessories are going to be having a hard time!

(The fact that business is America's #1 major is an indication of this problem. Business is all about making money, which is fine, but I imagine it would be better both for the people and for the businesses if there were more innovators and people working to improve and maintain our quality of life, such as teachers, doctors, social workers, etc.)

Bailing out the auto companies seems counter-intuitive. Instead of forcing companies to be innovative, we're going to help out companies who refused to make products that would be best for the people and instead choose to make products that were the best at filling their wallets. Perhaps these companies going under will encourage innovation. Or perhaps these company's resources can be used to encourage innovation. I'd much rather see the money help the people directly instead of keeping these companies in business. Maybe money can be used to create other opportunities for the employees to find both employment and to improve the country, which I know is part of Obama's plan to re-build America's infrastructure.

I find it interesting that so many people were waving the banner of free-market capitalism and competition, but the minute they start losing they begin to abandon their ideologies.

[masterofsparks]

You know, every year WFMU comes around with it's hand out asking for help. We don't turn away asking why they can't turn a profit?
We help them out. Same thing with the car companies.

I really hope this was not meant to be serious because it's a specious comparison. You can't compare the two - one is a for-profit and one is a charity/not-for-profit. You can't blame WFMU for asking for listener support because they're a LISTENER-SUPPORTED entity. That's how the station is funded. They're not attempting to make a profit or appease stockholders. They're not selling a product or service as their primary means of existence (it's true that they do sell merchandise, but this is also done in the service of staying financially solvent rather than attempting to make a profit). GM is a for-profit entity - they're supposed to be supporting themselves (and, theoretically, making a profit and appeasing stockholders) through their everyday operations.

[yesno]

Also people voluntarily give to WFMU.  Anyone who wants to voluntarily give to GM or Chrysler should feel free.  (I've already donated to Mennen this year so I'm tapped.)

[masterofsparks]

Having said that, I still voted "Yes" because my father-in-law is a GM retiree and if the company goes bankrupt or is forced to cut retiree health benefits and/or pension payments they are f-u-c-k-e-d. And as much as I like them, I sure as shit don't want them moving in with us.

[buffcoat]

Having said that, I still voted "Yes" because my father-in-law is a GM retiree and if the company goes bankrupt or is forced to cut retiree health benefits and/or pension payments they are f-u-c-k-e-d. And as much as I like them, I sure as shit don't want them moving in with us.

I approve of your selfishness, MoS!

I don't approve of the bailout. 

I will never buy an American car, unless they turn around a make a decent one.  I've owned Japanese and German cars, and I've spent a good amount of time driving a bunch of different American cars, and there is no comparison whatsoever.  Saturn is a brilliant marketing campaign and they (were) wonderful at providing an uncharacteristic family atmosphere, which I appreciate, but their cars are and were plastic junk.

I drove a Hyundai SUV out in Vegas and that was a decent car, too.  Buying a subpar automobile because it's patriotic doesn't help, even discounting the fact that most of the Japanese cars sold in America are made in Ohio, South Carolina, or Tennessee.

[A.M. Thomas]

Good gosh. Where is everyone's national pride? The USA, Detroit, Mo Town. Hello? This stuff should be hard wired into all of you.
Detroit makes great cars, they've made some legendary cars, they should be saved. The US car companies are as much a part of our American life as WFMU and The Best Show.

I used to drive a '93 Ford Taurus.  It was the biggest hunk of garbage I've ever operated.  I now drive an '03 Honda Civic.  It is reliable and efficient.

It's probably because of when I was born, but my "national pride" has nothing to do with cars or automakers or any industry.  As far back as I can remember, American cars were considered inferior to foreign cars.  If I were born in the 1950s, when cars looked cool and sounded cool, I'm sure my attitude would be different.

Yesno's idea of putting the bailout money towards the autoworkers instead of the automakers makes sense to me.  Even if the automakers get the money, which I'm sure they will, it won't be long before they are either asking for more money or closing shop altogether.

Antiquated corporations that produce cheap plastic junk deserve to fail.  The fact that they exist is why capitalism is bad.  The fact that they fail and are replaced by better producers is why capitalism is good.  Let's not fight the good capitalism.

[A.M. Thomas]

Maybe the government should invest the billions that will go to bailing out a dying industry into advancing public transportation.

Our infrastructure is extremely weak.  We have no high speed trains.  The trains we do have are not nearly as efficient as they should be.  We're about twenty years behind the rest of the developed world when it comes to public transportation.

Why not spend the public's money where the public can use it?  Why not invest in trains and buses so that we won't need as many cars?

[yesno]

A.M. Thomas is feeling feistily Schumpeterian this evening.