FOT Forum
The Best Show on WFMU => Show Discussion => Topic started by: putkcbackinks on October 23, 2008, 08:53:23 PM
-
The guy who called this week and said that St. Louis is a racist town is a certifiable jackass. I guarantee he was from, and speaking about, the suburbs and not the City of St. Louis. Chicago can have him. That is all.
-
Sorry buddy, born and raised in south city. I grew up just south of Tower Grove on Oleatha. Missouri is a beautiful state, but it's also one of the most segregated, racist places I've been. I was comforted to see all the Obama signs last month when I was visiting my parents.
And although I moved to Chicago, I still registered to vote absentee in Missouri, because they need the Obama help more than Illinois does. Take that, racist state!
-
I stand corrected. St. Louis has its problems for sure, but leave your bubble in Chicago and you'll find much of the same kind of stuff going on. Also, Illinois kind of goes Democrat more in an Iowa or Wisconsin kind of way than a Washington or New York kind of way. Why do you have to go on national radio and perpetuate the bad perceptions that make sure it never gets any better?
Either way I would like to thank you for the absentee vote. I will admit that Missouri is a racist state. And I spent part of my childhood on McDonald. Arsenal along the park there is lined with Obama signs to an almost comical degree.
-
I stand corrected. St. Louis has its problems for sure, but leave your bubble in Chicago and you'll find much of the same kind of stuff going on. Also, Illinois kind of goes Democrat more in an Iowa or Wisconsin kind of way than a Washington or New York kind of way. Why do you have to go on national radio and perpetuate the bad perceptions that make sure it never gets any better?
Either way I would like to thank you for the absentee vote. I will admit that Missouri is a racist state. And I spent part of my childhood on McDonald. Arsenal along the park there is lined with Obama signs to an almost comical degree.
St. Louis is a city almost defined by it's racism, actually: I don't need to tell you what the city/county divide has done to the tax base of St. Louis. And that schism was due to white flight in the 50s and 60s. Most of the problems with that city were caused by that shit.
The city is on the rebound (finally) and I don't think my call to a radio station is going to jeopardize that.
-
St. Louis is a city defined by its citizens' underdog attitude these days. True that many historic events that shaped segregation in the whole country took place here (the picture of Obama speaking to 100,000 people with the courthouse where the Dred Scott case was heard gave me chills, by the way), but it is moving toward being one of the more integrated cities among its peers. And if you want to debate urban geography and history, I could go all night. The fact is the city's split from the county happened in the 1870s and had nothing to do with racism (and everything to do with rich people not wanting to go out to what was then the hick-town of Clayton to conduct business or visit the courts). Actually, it didn't have as much of an affect on the city's competitiveness as people like to say. Kansas City, Chicago and all the cities that could annex new development still ended up losing to their suburbs in big ways.
And I'd say a call to a show like this can jeopardize the city's future. The rebound going on so far is mainly due to people who would be in the metro area anyway choosing to live within the city borders. We're still a weak market city and region and that won't change if people like the audience of the Best Show don't see it as a viable place to live. Richard Florida's "Creative Class" and all that shit.
If I seem to be taking this too seriously its because I am. It is quite lit'rully my job to try to make the city a better place.
-
When you mention white flight and city-county divide, I think of lots of other cities also, Todd. Washington, DC and Baltimore, to name just two that I'm more familiar with than St. Louis. Those movements were fueled in large part by racism, but of course it had a lot to do with schools, taxes, the suburban dream, upward mobility, homeownership, not all of which were entirely driven by racism. Those cities still really show the effects of white flight.
Also, this election campaign has been such an opportune time to see racism hard at work in places you wouldn't necessarily expect to see it burgeoning forth.
I like St. Louis for all its faults, but feel like its pains have had a lot to do with economics, not just old-fashioned racism. But I defer to you guys, who know it a lot better than I. It's just so far from unique in the respects you're describing.
-
I realize that I am probably just being an annoying wiener at this point, but check this out:
US Metro Areas Ranked by White/Black Dissimilarity Index
Rank Metro Area Black Population White Population Total Population Dissimilarity Index
1. Gary, IN 122,686 428,791 631,362 87.9
2. Detroit, MI 1,012,262 3,096,900 4,441,551 86.7
3. Milwaukee-Waukesha, WI 232,247 1,116,150 1,500,741 84.4
4. New York, NY 2,118,957 3,684,669 9,314,235 84.3
5. Chicago, IL 1,541,641 4,798,533 8,272,768 83.6
6. Newark, NJ 440,597 1,196,664 2,032,989 83.4
7. Flint, MI 88,356 323,136 436,141 81.2
8. Buffalo-Niagara Falls, NY 134,645 965,233 1,170,111 80.4
9. Cleveland-Lorain-Elyria, OH 412,782 1,697,660 2,250,871 79.7
10. Saginaw-Bay City-Midland, MI 40,875 332,429 403,070 79.1
11. Nassau-Suffolk, NY 223,122 2,105,352 2,753,913 79.0
12. Johnstown, PA 5,492 223,066 232,621 78.8
13. St. Louis, MO-IL 474,549 2,014,776 2,603,607 78.0
14. Cincinnati, OH-KY-IN 212,452 1,375,267 1,646,395 78.0
15. Birmingham, AL 276,044 611,574 921,106 77.4
(from http://www.censusscope.org/us/print_rank_dissimilarity_white_black.html)
Fido is right. Most northern cities have these problems. But the point is, step outside of your bubble and head over to Cabrini Green or somewhere like that and you'll see that St. Louis isn't so bad in the scheme of things. I don't know why it is so much harder to fight this mentality among people from St. Louis than among those from other places.
-
The fact that the actual succession happened in 1876 doesn't really matter, because the bottom didn't drop out of the economy until the 50s and 60s when the affluent white tax base headed for south county and chesterfield.
Funny you should mention Cabrini-Green - I live in Old Town in Chicago, which is just a few blocks from there.
I think you're reading a lot more into my comments than they deserve, but I don't mind having this conversation if you want to. It's educational!
-
The fact that the actual succession happened in 1876 doesn't really matter, because the bottom didn't drop out of the economy until the 50s and 60s when the affluent white tax base headed for south county and chesterfield.
. . . when whites and affluents were heading for the suburbs of literally every metropolitan area in the country, and to a higher degree in Chicago as that dissimilarity index would indicate to boot. I'm not saying St. Louis doesn't have problems, only that they're far from unique and not any worse than the same ones in Chicago.
I don't mind educating you, either. All I ask is that you apologize on the air, move back to St. Louis, and open a business that creates 1,000 high tech jobs.
-
Why do you have to go on national radio and perpetuate the bad perceptions that make sure it never gets any better?
Not to state the obvious ~ okay... to state the obvious, if you're truly interested in healing national perceptions about the divisive bigotry of Missouri, then calling yourself "putkcbackinks" and telling a son of Missouri to stay in his Chicago bubble isn't the most effective way of doing it.
-
The fact that the actual succession happened in 1876 doesn't really matter, because the bottom didn't drop out of the economy until the 50s and 60s when the affluent white tax base headed for south county and chesterfield.
. . . when whites and affluents were heading for the suburbs of literally every metropolitan area in the country, and to a higher degree in Chicago as that dissimilarity index would indicate to boot. I'm not saying St. Louis doesn't have problems, only that they're far from unique and not any worse than the same ones in Chicago.
I don't mind educating you, either. All I ask is that you apologize on the air, move back to St. Louis, and open a business that creates 1,000 high tech jobs.
You trying to convince me that Chicago is racist doesn't really change the fact that St. Louis is racist. ???
It also doesn't make any sense, as "St. Louis is a racist city" wasn't intended to be an ironclad argument that would hold up to scrutiny. Theys just words!
-
You trying to convince me that Chicago is racist doesn't really change the fact that St. Louis is racist. ???
It also doesn't make any sense, as "St. Louis is a racist city" wasn't intended to be an ironclad argument that would hold up to scrutiny. Theys just words!
I know it doesn't matter anymore and you seem to be a solid dude, but I do want to defend my argument. The comment on the air made it sound like you thought St. Louis was somehow special for being racist. If you really understand that Chicago, Cincinnati, Baltimore, Pittsburgh, etc have the same problem, you might as well have said "St. Louis is a city where people eat food."
It's ridiculous how much energy I've put into this, but you've gotta understand that negative and partially untrue comments about this city that I love coming from someone who is from here are particularly frustrating.
Why do you have to go on national radio and perpetuate the bad perceptions that make sure it never gets any better?
Not to state the obvious ~ okay... to state the obvious, if you're truly interested in healing national perceptions about the divisive bigotry of Missouri, then calling yourself "putkcbackinks" and telling a son of Missouri to stay in his Chicago bubble isn't the most effective way of doing it.
I never said I'd stick up for MO. In fact, I am begging you all to not move to 113/114 of it.
Seriously though, its a friendly joke as Kansas City never was in Kansas and thusly can't be put back there and alluding to a St. Louis-Kansas City rivalry that doesn't really exist, clearly making it hilarious. I assure you it goes over better on my nerdy urban planning forums.
-
Yeah, it probably is just a friendly rivalry. I'm certainly not some sort of Pro-KC weirdo who's going to get all indignant about it, ;) but it's hard to tell over the internet when people are just joking sometimes ~ esp when people bandying about such a sensitive issue as racism.
-
Yeah, it probably is just a friendly rivalry.
At least until there's another "I-70" World Series with the Cards and the Royals, right? That doesn't appear to be a threat in the immediate future, as the Royals have been far from those glory days. But you never know.
I get interested in stats like this "dissimilarity index," which I didn't even know existed until I read the above post. That list reads like a rogues gallery of rust belt/northern cities with real economic problems. And I say so as a New Yorker, dismayed to see my city's region in fourth place on that list. I haven't yet looked into how it's calculated, but it seems like lots of southern and western cities are conspicuous in their absence like: Atlanta, Houston, Miami, Dallas, Los Angeles, Phoenix, etc.
I think it's time to kill this thread or move it out of Show Discussion, or Tom will be angry.
-
My baby sis was born in St. Louis. I was too young to remember much from living there though. Anyway, certainly not going to dog you about caring about your community. I think the truth when you get down to it is, most places in America are misunderstood to some degree.
Except for Vegas. Everything they say about Vegas is absolutely true.
-
Racism aside, St. Louis is clearly no friend to the endangered species.
I drove through there a couple years ago on my way out to Lipstick City, CA. I was horrified to see two o' nem gigantic elephant tusks reachin' up'ere into the sky and touchin' at the tips like a big archway, er somethin'! It musta been over fifty feet high and it was surrounded by tourists!
At a gas station, I asked one of the locals about it and he seemed prouder than ever to have that monstrosity lubin' over the city like'at.
Being from the great state of PA which honors its animals, such as the Philadelphia Eagle, the Penn State Nitany Lion, the Pittsburgh Penguin, and the Hershey Bear, I was downright applaud! I ain't never goin' back'ere. No way and no day.
-
Except for Vegas. Everything they say about Vegas is absolutely true.
Even the part about what happens there, stays there?
I have to admit, the first thing that crossed my mind when reading this thread was that Trembling Eagle was working on a new character.
-
You can take the racists out of St. Louis.
And you can put the affluent back into St. Louis.
But you can't take the boring out of St. Louis.
And you can't put Keith Hernandez back into a St. Louis uniform.
-
I drove through there a couple years ago on my way out to Lipstick City, CA.
So now MO is a drive-through state too? Jeesh...j/k
I recently moved to St. Louis and work in NYC.
It’s the only place I’ve been where the wealthy, literally, have giant fenced-in neighborhoods to keep out the “undesirables.” They even go so far to hire private security firms to patrol their blocks.
Now, I’ve had the misfortune to do U-Turns in “private communities” in NJ, CT and RI, with their own moonlighting cops on patrol. But usually they're off the beaten-path. Not so in St. Louis. They’re dropped right in the center of working class neighborhoods and border "blight."
This makes me believe the only the difference boils down to visibility. For the most part, St. Louis isn't hiding its poor with highways (as NJ does so well), or public works projects (good job Manhattan) or good public transportation systems (excellent job ‘L’).
From what I can tell, they didn't have a visionary like Robert Moses, or the tax base, to due all the dirty work for them.
-
St. Louis' greatest problem is its pizza...seriously.
-
St. Louis' greatest problem is its pizza...seriously.
What you don't like "Provel," the Velveeta-equivalent of mozzarella?
I found a decent pizza place. They claim they're from New Jersey, and I went a few times. But then I got in a fight with the owner because they charge full price for half toppings and he banned me. Well, I shouldn't say "banned." Or "fight." It was actually anonymously submitted through their myspace account and he told me to "come in and we'll talk about." In Jersey that means he would probably break my eye-lids, or something. So I haven't been back.
I was going to call and complain to Tom during an appropriate topic. But I didn't want to sound cheap.
But seriously: half the toppings should equal half the price. If I wanted to pay full price I'd order a pizza with toppings on the whole thing.
Oh, 10-Speed, what's wrong with me....
-
St. Louis' greatest problem is its pizza...seriously.
Fuck you, Imo's is amazing.
By the way... breaking news from a St. Louis suburb: "Hit A Jew Day" announced at a junior high school!
http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/us/2008/10/24/dnt.hit.jew.day.ksdk
-
It's Marky Mark's fault.
-
(http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1180/1066336632_e196526d96.jpg?v=0)
I don't know how to put this, but I'm kind of a big deal. Born and raised in St. Louis, I'm pretty much the gulliest sandwich in the game.
How I get down: An egg foo young patty, made up of multiple whipped eggs, some bean sprouts and a dash of minced white onions; two slices of white bread, Wonder Bread if you're a real baller, slather that mess generously with mayonnaise; throw on your various toppings, basically some combination of lettuce, tomato, and pickle, maybe some meat.
And enjoy!
Holler at your boy at Wong's Inn, Mai-Lee's, Chong Wah, La Chong Wah, Lam's Garden, Delmar Lee's, Big L Chop Suey, Bing Lau, Kam Wah, Young's, Hing Lung, Song's, Dr. King Chop Suey, Kingshighway Chop Suey, Hon's Wok, and all your favorite Chop Suey Chinamen spots.
http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendID=117760455 (http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendID=117760455)
-
At least until there's another "I-70" World Series with the Cards and the Royals, right? That doesn't appear to be a threat in the immediate future, as the Royals have been far from those glory days. But you never know.
I get interested in stats like this "dissimilarity index," which I didn't even know existed until I read the above post. That list reads like a rogues gallery of rust belt/northern cities with real economic problems. And I say so as a New Yorker, dismayed to see my city's region in fourth place on that list. I haven't yet looked into how it's calculated, but it seems like lots of southern and western cities are conspicuous in their absence like: Atlanta, Houston, Miami, Dallas, Los Angeles, Phoenix, etc.
I think it's time to kill this thread or move it out of Show Discussion, or Tom will be angry.
The Royals were actually offered the chance to move to the National League before the Brewers. MLB thought a rivalry with the Cards might help their slumping ticket sales. They rejected the offer, citing some imaginary rivalry they had with the Yankees. Well, imaginary to Yankees fans, anyway. But yeah, a real missed opportunity there.
As for the index, it is interesting that some of the most integrated areas are in the South. I think its probably because in the 40s and 50s while some people in the North and West were getting rich and suburbanizing, NO ONE in the south was, so cities remained much the same til the banking booms in the late 80s and 90s. I don't quite know how to explain the West, other than that there are generally less black people there. Keep in mind this is only the dissimilarity between whites and blacks, not whites and Hispanics, Native Americans, Asian Americans, etc
So now MO is a drive-through state too? Jeesh...j/k
I recently moved to St. Louis and work in NYC.
It’s the only place I’ve been where the wealthy, literally, have giant fenced-in neighborhoods to keep out the “undesirables.” They even go so far to hire private security firms to patrol their blocks.
Now, I’ve had the misfortune to do U-Turns in “private communities” in NJ, CT and RI, with their own moonlighting cops on patrol. But usually they're off the beaten-path. Not so in St. Louis. They’re dropped right in the center of working class neighborhoods and border "blight."
This makes me believe the only the difference boils down to visibility. For the most part, St. Louis isn't hiding its poor with highways (as NJ does so well), or public works projects (good job Manhattan) or good public transportation systems (excellent job ‘L’).
From what I can tell, they didn't have a visionary like Robert Moses, or the tax base, to due all the dirty work for them.
Those private streets in St. Louis you're talking about were actually built in the 1910s and at the time had the goal of protecting the super-rich from the "undesirables" which were the merely rich. All of that area deteriorated pretty quick in the 50s and 60s, but the houses on those private streets got rehabbed in the 80s largely by wealthy professors from nearby Saint Louis and Washington Universities. They have to have private security because everything, including the streets, are privately owned. If you own a house there, your property line extends out to the middle of the street. The owners have to pay in common to have it repaved, plowed, you name it. The police don't patrol private property. The point is the "blight" popped up around the gated private streets, nothing was plopped down in the middle of working class anything. The County certainly does have the private communities you're describing, though.
And visibility really is the issue here. That's why I was saying go check out Cabrini Green. In cities like NYC and Chicago it really can become "out of sight, out of mind."
St. Louis' greatest problem is its pizza...seriously.
The real problem is PAYING for St. Louis pizza. Same price as anywhere else, but its like a cracker with pizza toppings on it. I do like provel cheese though, and there are a few places that incorporate it into Chicago-style with amazing results. Feraro's "Jersey Style" is by far the best in St. Louis though.
-
(http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1180/1066336632_e196526d96.jpg?v=0)
I don't think I've ever had Chinese breakfast before...
Wow! Did you just combine two, count them, TWO, threads in one?
-
Drove through it once. Love that arch!
-
St. Louis' greatest problem is its pizza...seriously.
What you don't like "Provel," the Velveeta-equivalent of mozzarella?
I found a decent pizza place. They claim they're from New Jersey, and I went a few times. But then I got in a fight with the owner because they charge full price for half toppings and he banned me. Well, I shouldn't say "banned." Or "fight." It was actually anonymously submitted through their myspace account and he told me to "come in and we'll talk about." In Jersey that means he would probably break my eye-lids, or something. So I haven't been back.
I was going to call and complain to Tom during an appropriate topic. But I didn't want to sound cheap.
But seriously: half the toppings should equal half the price. If I wanted to pay full price I'd order a pizza with toppings on the whole thing.
Oh, 10-Speed, what's wrong with me....
That guy used to be my neighbor. I assure you he is reasonable and won't break your eyelids or earlobes or any other body part that I have a hard time imagining how it would break. The secret there is that all the named pizzas with set toppings are usually way more than if you just individually pick them out. Not sure how that happened.(http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1180/1066336632_e196526d96.jpg?v=0)
I don't know how to put this, but I'm kind of a big deal. Born and raised in St. Louis, I'm pretty much the gulliest sandwich in the game.
How I get down: An egg foo young patty, made up of multiple whipped eggs, some bean sprouts and a dash of minced white onions; two slices of white bread, Wonder Bread if you're a real baller, slather that mess generously with mayonnaise; throw on your various toppings, basically some combination of lettuce, tomato, and pickle, maybe some meat.
And enjoy!
Holler at your boy at Wong's Inn, Mai-Lee's, Chong Wah, La Chong Wah, Lam's Garden, Delmar Lee's, Big L Chop Suey, Bing Lau, Kam Wah, Young's, Hing Lung, Song's, Dr. King Chop Suey, Kingshighway Chop Suey, Hon's Wok, and all your favorite Chop Suey Chinamen spots.
http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendID=117760455 (http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendID=117760455)
I am by all accounts a sandwich connoisseur, so I am embarrassed to admit that I've never had a St. Paul Sandwich. I think the speed bump has been that any place that sells them looks like if you were to go in there and order it you'd accidentally be speaking in code and would be given some amount of methamphetamine or will have signed on to smuggle immigrants in your trunk from some barge on the riverfront to a meat packing plant outside of Joplin.
-
I don't think I've ever had Chinese breakfast before...
Wow! Did you just combine two, count them, TWO, threads in one?
Inadvertently, but I guess so. DAMN that picture is making me hungry.
-
Inadvertently, but I guess so. DAMN that picture is making me hungry.
I guess it's my duty as a transplant to try such a modern marvel of culinary creativity.
If I haven't posted by Saturday, call the paramedics...or at least a good upper GI doctor.
-
This thread is weird.
-
Oh, you ain't heard nothing yet, Martin. In fact, you practically invited it. I was trying to remember what I've learned about weird St. Louis food. And then I found it. To wit:
Excerpted from: http://thevitalvoice.com/node/319 (http://thevitalvoice.com/node/319)
St Louis’s famous offal sandwich is now all but extinct, but I assure you it did exist in plentiful abundance at one time, long ago in the city of yesteryear. The mighty “Brain Sandwich” is not just an urban myth, but was an actual staple of daily sustenance, not just for St Louisans, but also for those throughout the Ohio River Valley, and other places with large German immigrant populations. From reading the old time recipes for making this antique treat, all I can say is that they must have been delicious for all the work required to produce them.
First the skull must be cracked—no easy feat—even for the slaughterhouse. Then the brain must be cleaned of fibrous membranes and connective tissues. Next, the brain is cut into slices, battered and fried. Serve between bread slices with pickle and onion. Sounds delicious, no? I’ve never eaten one, but a friend’s mother (a lady now in her 80’s) described them to me as “crunchy and sweet.”
“Mad Cow Disease did them in finally”, says Bill Schnitker, sales rep for Kern Meats (one of our city’s top meat wholesalers). “We sold them before Mad Cow Disease hit, but after that the demand dropped off, and they became really expensive, so we just stopped carrying them,” Schnitker added. “The brain is the first thing affected by the disease, so it just kind of makes sense not to eat it.”
Schottzie’s Bar and Grill at 11428 Concord Village still is serving brain sandwiches. Andy Lowe, one of Schottzie’s cooks confirmed the tedious procedure for cleaning the brains. Lowe says “I pick through them, taking out all the little bone pieces and fibers. Then I put them in an egg wash and flour them and make a little patty to fry.” Lowe pronounces them to be “really good, but sometimes a little bit gritty. Some people stopped eating them after the Mad Cow scare, but we still sell a lot of them.”
-
Yeah this did get off the topic of the show pretty quick so whoever has the authority should feel free to move or delete this. I never expected the caller to respond so I never meant to start an argument, only to stick up for the town.
I'm going to go back to not checking this site every hour and actually getting some work done now.
-
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=114215599