PATRIOT Act: zing!

[Gilly]

Beth, I don't think you were saying that you were "only" going to vote for Kucinich because he supports gay marriage but I have a feeling a lot of people will not vote for Ron Paul because he is pro-life and a lot of people will vote for Kucinich because he supports gay marriage without looking at any of the other issues. I think that's wrong and in my opinion it's worse than not voting at all. It's seems selfish to place one issue above every other issue facing our nation and it's the reason we have terrible leaders. If abortion were removed from the political landscape people wouldn't be voting for the ones they are.

I don't know, they are both very important issues that affect a lot of people in different ways, both dealing with basic human rights. But, it's frustrating to me when people vote on one issue. A good chunk of voters do it.

[Beth]

Beth, I don't think you were saying that you were "only" going to vote for Kucinich because he supports gay marriage but I have a feeling a lot of people will not vote for Ron Paul because he is pro-life and a lot of people will vote for Kucinich because he supports gay marriage without looking at any of the other issues. I think that's wrong and in my opinion it's worse than not voting at all. It's seems selfish to place one issue above every other issue facing our nation and it's the reason we have terrible leaders. If abortion were removed from the political landscape people wouldn't be voting for the ones they are.

I don't know, they are both very important issues that affect a lot of people in different ways, both dealing with basic human rights. But, it's frustrating to me when people vote on one issue. A good chunk of voters do it.

Oh I have a lot of issues that I look at (death penalty, health care, international policy, reproductive rights, etc.) I just think it's important when a candidate has balls enough to speak out on an issue like gay marriage, instead playing it safe by hemming and hawing their way around it (for example, Clinton and Obama both support the idea of domestic partnership, but won't take the plunge and say that they support gay marriage--which in my opinion belittles the gay community). I understand that religiously they may be against it, but inflicting your religious views on the entire country---especially if it seriously affects the life decision-making ability of 10 percent of that country--is severely counterproductive to the growth of tolerance and understanding in America.
 
Your point is well taken however, and I heartily agree. 

Also, I still don't know if I'm voting for Kucinich, I was just pointing out that he was the only semi-front running candidate who is actually stepping up in favor of gay marriage, and I think that's pretty cool.

[Gilly]

[(for example, Clinton and Obama both support the idea of domestic partnership, but won't take the plunge and say that they support gay marriage--which in my opinion belittles the gay community). I understand that religiously they may be against it, but inflicting your religious views on the entire country---especially if it seriously affects the life decision-making ability of 10 percent of that country--is severely counterproductive to the growth of tolerance and understanding in America.

The question is, would Obama and Clinton gain voters if they said that? It's sad to think, but I think they'd lose more than they'd gain. Like I said before, Kucinich is an idea guy who is in the debates to get other candidates talking about issues that would never have been brought up. He has nothing to lose by saying he supports gay marriage.

[A.M. Thomas]

What do you all think about Ron Paul?

I admire him like a person, and even though I don't truck much with Libertarianism as an actionable philosophy, I have to admit that I admire his ideological coherence.  The modern-day GOP seems to have combined all of the worst aspects of modern governments - the patronage and corruption of the old Democratic machines, the stinginess and cruelty of the old GOP, the 2+2 = 5 illogic of communism and plain old race-baiting and religious fundamentalism (I have no illusions about the Democrats, either, but that's another story).  I appreciate the fact that Paul possesses the courage of his convictions and generally seems like an honest and ethical guy.  But he's also emblematic of  the delusional nature of the internets - from the dot-com casino mania to the blogger egotism of Web 2.0 to long, melodramatic, narcissistic AST posts, the whole enterprise seems marked by an inflated sense of importance.  Not that the web, or Ron Paul, aren't legitimate or important, but they're important in a sort of aggregate way, which brings me to:

I hate to get all serious on ya'lls, but until a Presidential election is won by a single vote, every vote ever cast has been a throwaway vote, in the sense that the outcome of the election would not have been changed if you had chosen not to vote. Now GROUPS of voters, there's something there, but your individual vote? About as much value as a "YOU'VE been JAMESED".

I think getting Jamesed is pretty important, Dave.  Actually, though, this connects with the above because voting, like the web, or any other democratic system, is all about tiny bits and bites and how they affect the larger picture.  I don't entirely buy Malcolm Gladwell's concept of The Tipping Point or Chris Anderson's The Long Tail - they both strike me as business-seminar, high-concept buzz-phrases - but there is something to those concepts.  These tiny niches and individual actions matter.  Isn't there some kind of cool chaos-theory mathematical model that explains  how little unrelated events and actions lead up to larger, incredibly complex phenomena?  Come on Dave, let's team up and bore the rest of the board into a coma.

Dear Jasongrote:

I think you are smart guy and I agree with and appreciate all of your views.

Your friend,
No Underbites

[Josh]

Andy,

What do you think about this? The graphs are too small to read, but it looks pretty interesting.

In an effort to achieve low first costs, low lifecycle costs, and an accelerated building schedule for a college residence hall project in Vermont, KieranTimberlake Associates LLP explored the use of metal stud framing in the construction of the project's exterior wall system. In so doing, the firm hoped to identify a cost-effective means to achieve a wall system appropriate for a building project with an expected 100+ year lifespan.

[Beth]

[(for example, Clinton and Obama both support the idea of domestic partnership, but won't take the plunge and say that they support gay marriage--which in my opinion belittles the gay community). I understand that religiously they may be against it, but inflicting your religious views on the entire country---especially if it seriously affects the life decision-making ability of 10 percent of that country--is severely counterproductive to the growth of tolerance and understanding in America.

The question is, would Obama and Clinton gain voters if they said that? It's sad to think, but I think they'd lose more than they'd gain. Like I said before, Kucinich is an idea guy who is in the debates to get other candidates talking about issues that would never have been brought up. He has nothing to lose by saying he supports gay marriage.

I'm sure they would lose votes. But it's good to have those idea guys around to keep the candidates on their toes. In that way, I'm grateful for candidates like Kucinich.

[Ason]

[(for example, Clinton and Obama both support the idea of domestic partnership, but won't take the plunge and say that they support gay marriage--which in my opinion belittles the gay community). I understand that religiously they may be against it, but inflicting your religious views on the entire country---especially if it seriously affects the life decision-making ability of 10 percent of that country--is severely counterproductive to the growth of tolerance and understanding in America.

The question is, would Obama and Clinton gain voters if they said that? It's sad to think, but I think they'd lose more than they'd gain. Like I said before, Kucinich is an idea guy who is in the debates to get other candidates talking about issues that would never have been brought up. He has nothing to lose by saying he supports gay marriage.

I'm sure they would lose votes. But it's good to have those idea guys around to keep the candidates on their toes. In that way, I'm grateful for candidates like Kucinich.

Those anti-gay people aren't gonna vote for Clinton or Obama anyway.

That's the big lie the republicans have pulled off
making dems posture to the right for votes.

[Andy]

Andy,

What do you think about this? The graphs are too small to read, but it looks pretty interesting.

In an effort to achieve low first costs, low lifecycle costs, and an accelerated building schedule for a college residence hall project in Vermont, KieranTimberlake Associates LLP explored the use of metal stud framing in the construction of the project's exterior wall system. In so doing, the firm hoped to identify a cost-effective means to achieve a wall system appropriate for a building project with an expected 100+ year lifespan.

I had given up on this thread until I saw this.

I proposed a job once to the Corps of Engineers (the construction wing of the armed forces) that was a housing project.  It was about twice the price of normal housing, but was 50 year construction.  50 year roof, r50 (!) spray on roof insulation and..... wall panels built similar to those that would be built off-site and erected as panels.

I'll let you guess whether they jumped on the proposal or not.  I thought it was awesome.

[Gilly]

Those anti-gay people aren't gonna vote for Clinton or Obama anyway.

That's the big lie the republicans have pulled off
making dems posture to the right for votes.

That's not true. You'd be surprised how many democrats are against gay marriage.

[Josh]

I proposed a job once to the Corps of Engineers (the construction wing of the armed forces) that was a housing project.  It was about twice the price of normal housing, but was 50 year construction.  50 year roof, r50 (!) spray on roof insulation and..... wall panels built similar to those that would be built off-site and erected as panels.

I'll let you guess whether they jumped on the proposal or not.  I thought it was awesome.

It's a shame that "building for posterity" isn't even an actual thing anymore. The ego's still there, but it's about the immediate splash of a starchitect's name instead of a monument to immortality. Considering how much of a building's lifetime total energy use is in construction and building materials (using a compact fluorescent instead of incandescent is a drop in a bucket compared to, for example, using local materials), it's a shame no presidential candidate gives this much attention.

[Shaggy 2 Grote]

Dear Jasongrote:

I think you are smart guy and I agree with and appreciate all of your views.

Your friend,
No Underbites

Aw, thanks No Underbites.  You are a nice guy or gal.